Wheel bearings again

[Ralph 67]

My NC750X has just clicked over 23000 miles so have booked in for 24000 mile service. There is play in the rear wheel bearings again. Dealer has ordered them again under warranty. First lot were done after 13k so I'm now wondering if there is an issue here. I don't fancy having to change them every 12k. I don't think it will do the bearing housing any good. Anybody got any engineering theories other than cheap nasty bearings which I'm beginning to suspect!

[reedx 48]

Cheap and nasty would be my guess, though Japanese made bearings are normally OK.

 

Timken or SKF would be my choice as replacements.

 

Colin

[Jimish 158]

Worrying this. Why not ask your dealer to show you the bearings when he has taken them out? You should be able to read the manufacturers name on the races. If there's no name then they are cheap rubbish. As previously mentioned Timken or SKF will have their moniker on them.

[motorbykcourier 293]

I had 2 sets go quickly (?) within 8000 miles of each other - but been fine for sometime now

Went to a local bearing shop and bought quality makes

The 1st set went at ~48K miles and next were changed at 56K miles

Last set have now been in for over 30K miles

Hmmm... looking at the mileage, maybe I should get another set - just in case !?

[bazza 3,629]

Mine have just been refitted at 12,000 miles but an interesting viewing on U tube said that you can wash them clean of grease with white spirit then it got clever and used a vacuum to fully grease them up.Have a look!

I am cheating and getting my steering head and swinging arm bearing examined and re-greased by a local dealer -not a Honda agent.When I mentioned what I wanted he said he wasnt surprised -he has seen a lot of Honda's lacking grease!

[matt28 401]

This could be poor quality bearing itself, or wrong bearing for the job - to small.

[kayz1 2,928]

Tis the modern way....low drag bearings to gain MPG all part of the move to gain that extra mile.. Tis lac of grease not cheap bearings.

I have had SKF/FAG and many more new sets with only a smidge of grease in them, pull a seal o the new bearings and re=pack..but

don't over do it.

Lyn.

[glencoeman 129]

It might be better if you used bearings with an inbuilt seal on both sides. We had to fit them to Honda's in the 1970's. Also, don't use a high pressure hose to wash the bike.

[Ralph 67]

I had a look at the last set of bearings when they were changed last time. They were heavily corroded even though they were sealed on both sides. I have asked dealer to let me look at them this time to see if they are as bad. The bearings look like they are big enough to cope with the 54bhb the NC puts out. I will take note of the bearing numbers and make this time should anyone be interested. This bike is being touted as a budget commuter/adventure/all rounder. I think the concept is great. The execution by Honda on my bike has been sadly lacking. I am having the alternator cover replaced at the same time as the paint has fallen off that too. All in all, the finish has proved to be extremely poor. My 28 year old VFR sits in the garage and probably laughs at the shoddy build quality. If you bought a new car to commute in, kept it outside and watched it corrode away in less than 2 years. you would think you had bought a 70's/80's BL or Lada product! The bike is great. The quality is as bad as I've ever seen

[roddy 845]

Keith, sorry to hear about all the issues you have had with your bike. But my experience had been quite different. My 750s is now 2 years old 28000 miles kept outside under a cover with no corrosion and looks and runs like new. But there is an in depth article in Ride magazine on our bikes and bearings are a know weak point along with some other issues, maybe I am just lucky? but I am quite impressed with the build of the bike

[roddy 845]

Forgot to say the bike is regularly services and larupt in anti-corrosion spray and bearing greased. 

[embee 7,288]

The only way they can get corroded is if water has got in there, which it shouldn't be able to if the outer spindle seals are good and they've not been pressure washed. The bearings as specified should be well up to the job in principle.

One common reason why they fail soon after replacement is incorrect fitting. It is essential that no force is put through the bearing elements, one common mistake is using a tool correctly on the outer race to fit them into the housing but going too far and making them tight on the spacer tube,loading thm axially. They should really be fitted using a flat faced anvil and press them into place so that the inner and outer races cannot be loaded separately. Very often folk will hammer them in, always a potential problem.

[michael 324]

Over 20 years ago Harley used unsealed wheel bearings, which on the face of it, is a bad idea.

 

Routine service required removing the wheels at every oil change, popping the bearings out and re-greasing. they had a spiffy funnel looking appliance they merely dropped the bearing on the small end, and used another funnel looking device that literally drove the old grease out and new grease in.

Took mere seconds and a completely greased bearing resulted. 

The other added benefit was the tech could roll the bearings in his hand to determine if they were worn.

 

My dealer opined he rarely discovered a failed bearing (recall, much heavier bike with 70 HP and loads of torque) and revised the factory recommended service interval to working with the bearings at every tire change.  After all, he reasoned, why remove the wheels when not really, truly, actually required.

 

Archaic? Perhaps. This is a company that installs grease fittings at the steering head and swing arm bearings, something I'd dearly love to see on our motorcycles.

 

My point. Not sure really. Perhaps the new system of sealed bearings isn't that much of an improvement

 

Back in the day (okay, so i'm not *that* old!) ball joints in my car had grease fittings. Newer vehicles do not. An improvement? Not sure.

[Ralph 67]

Well, the rear bearings have now been changed and there is still a little play in rear wheel. I assumed it would be the bearing housings but Tech said it was the wheel spindle which is to be changed. Should be here in a day or two. They are changing the cush drive too. 24000 miles in. Had hoped it would last for 100,000 miles. Not getting a warm fuzzy feeling. One of the glossy magazines were singing the praises of the quality finish, maybe they should come and look at mine

[Guest Jarrod]

It's look like I will have to replace my front bearings as well. Where to buy SKF one?

[embee 7,288]

It's look like I will have to replace my front bearings as well. Where to buy SKF one?

I've had stuff from various online suppliers, depending on pricing and postage etc, for example

http://www.bearingsrus.co.uk/

https://www.thebearingcompany.co.uk/

http://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/

The fronts are common and not expensive. I only use the well known branded items, SKF, FAG, Koyo etc

[Guest Jarrod]

The fronts are common and not expensive. I only use the well known branded items, SKF, FAG, Koyo etc

 

Which are the best in your opinion?

6204 2Z ? front and rear?

[Guest Jarrod]

OK. found it 6204 2RS

Thanks

[Mike5100 2,061]

I am at over 20k miles now and did a wheel rocking check yesterdy and could detect no wear at all.  Very strange that some people are getting regular problems

Mike

[djsb 491]

Does anyone have a source for a bearing fitting tool (Anvil) that will do the installation? I have a tool for removing bearings and I know I could knock the bearings in with the correct size socket. Just want to do the job properly.

[embee 7,288]

OK. found it 6204 2RS

Thanks

You've found it fine.

 

Just for info for anyone else, these types of ball bearings come in a variety of flavours. Bike wheel bearings are typically radial deep groove ball bearings, designed for mainly radial loads. They will tolerate some axial load, but mainly radial.

 

Open are what it says, you can see the cages holding the balls inside the races. Used typically inside oiled ares, gearboxes etc.

Shielded - these have metal shields fitted one or both sides to keep the grease in and most bits and pieces out, but are not actually sealed. Used in benign dry environments, inside machines which are dry etc. These are usually designated "Z" for one shield, ZZ or 2Z etc for double shields.

Sealed - these are what you want for wheel bearings (usually) where the seals keep the grease in and water/dirt/dust etc out, used in more hostile environments. A variety of designations are used, R or U or RS etc, so 2RS is "two rubber seals", you need to double check the terminology used by the particular manufacturer.

 

The other thing to be aware of is the running tolerance. There is a designation used for bearings made for high speed or where there can be shaft deflections etc, these have slightly greater running clearances, usually designated "C3". These are NOT what you want for bike wheel bearings. If these have been fitted it's possible you could detect some play, I can't recall ever having knowingly come across any like this, but it's possible.

There are "angular contact" bearings which are designed so they will take higher axial loads as well as radial. Some bikes use a double row angular contact bearing in one side of the rear wheel, and they are often used in the sprocket carrier. These have more elements in them and a lot more manufacturing input, and are consequently quite a lot more expensive than a simple deep groove radial bearing.

[Guest normanlai]

You've found it fine.

 

 

The other thing to be aware of is the running tolerance. There is a designation used for bearings made for high speed or where there can be shaft deflections etc, these have slightly greater running clearances, usually designated "C3". These are NOT what you want for bike wheel bearings. If these have been fitted it's possible you could detect some play, I can't recall ever having knowingly come across any like this, but it's possible.

There are "angular contact" bearings which are designed so they will take higher axial loads as well as radial. Some bikes use a double row angular contact bearing in one side of the rear wheel, and they are often used in the sprocket carrier. These have more elements in them and a lot more manufacturing input, and are consequently quite a lot more expensive than a simple deep groove radial bearing.

 

Hello, May i know, for the SKF i have found RSL and RSH.  would L be any benefit as it is low friction.  and i have found RS1 and RSH, but no info on the difference.  all of them are non C3 versions as you advised.  Clearance=standard.  thank you.

 

on this topic, does anyone know what is the specification for the third bearing in the rear wheel.  2 pieces of 6204, and 1 piece of a special bearing.

 

i am tempted to try the Japanese Koyo due to its premium price, but i figured Fag SKF and Koyo are all way above the OEM honda bearings so, anything is better than what's broken in my front wheel.

Edited July 7, 2016 by normanlai

[embee 7,288]

Koyo are a very well respected manufacturer and are commonly used in Japanese bikes. I would be happy to use them. Other well known brands, SKF, FAG, NSK etc are also fine.

 

I don't know the detail of the RSL or RSH designations. It would probably be unwise to use anything other than the straightforward double sealed bearing design, different manufacturers use different naming systems like 2RS, UU etc all to mean 2 rubber seals. Z usually refers to shields rather than seals, and should not be used in wheels. Low friction type designs are often intended for high speed applications to reduce heat effects, bike wheels are low speeds (around the 1000rpm mark).

 

The sprocket carrier bearing in the NC is a (double row) angular contact bearing 22x50x15 according to  http://www.bike-parts-honda.com/pieces-honda-detail-61002-61002-NC700SAC-2012-F_15-NC+700+ABS+35KW.html . I haven't found this size in the bearing stockists I have used in the past.

[Tonyj 6,907]

Does anyone have a source for a bearing fitting tool (Anvil) that will do the installation? I have a tool for removing bearings and I know I could knock the bearings in with the correct size socket. Just want to do the job properly.

Can you not get a piece of studding with a plate the correct size of the rim of the bearing surface to pull up against, with nuts on the ends and tighten it up pulling the bearings into the housing , pass the stud through the middle of the wheel and tighten against it

[Guest normanlai]

to answer my own question and to add on to your answer, this is what i got from a sales representative

 

L is for Low Friction, it is contact less.  this is not for motorcycles.

2RSH is the one motorcycles need. SKF does not have 2RS in my country, only 2RSH.

And yes, do ensure it is non C3. C3 is for speeds reaching 10k RPM, it has bigger clearance that is bad for our tyres that require a good fit. Many bearings on Fleabay are actually C3 clearance, not Standard clearance, do buy with caution.

 

Koyo is Japanese, FAG, TimKen and SKF have common bearings like 6204 now made in china, as long it is sealed in box, it should be genuine.

 

OR maybe its because i am a short 6 hours plane away from China.

 

thanks embee for your expertise.  now i have to find a weekend to make some noise hammering it out.

Koyo are a very well respected manufacturer and are commonly used in Japanese bikes. I would be happy to use them. Other well known brands, SKF, FAG, NSK etc are also fine.

 

I don't know the detail of the RSL or RSH designations. It would probably be unwise to use anything other than the straightforward double sealed bearing design, different manufacturers use different naming systems like 2RS, UU etc all to mean 2 rubber seals. Z usually refers to shields rather than seals, and should not be used in wheels. Low friction type designs are often intended for high speed applications to reduce heat effects, bike wheels are low speeds (around the 1000rpm mark).

 

The sprocket carrier bearing in the NC is a (double row) angular contact bearing 22x50x15 according to  http://www.bike-parts-honda.com/pieces-honda-detail-61002-61002-NC700SAC-2012-F_15-NC+700+ABS+35KW.html . I haven't found this size in the bearing stockists I have used in the past.