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DCT software update


Stan

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Hi Team, (not posted here before but wondering if you can help with a query)

 

as a manual rider I have always been gentle on the clutch and throttle, but I've decided the DCT on my 2015 750X bike isn't smooth enough changing up and down when moving slowly through London traffic.

 

If I was living outside London I would be perfectly happy with it.

 

But low speed throttle is a constant feature of negotiating London traffic and I find there is too much on/off chop for me in the lower gears. There is not enough clutch blending going on....

 

I bought the bike at the end of last year unaware that the 2016 bike was about to appear in the showroom.

 

I now realise I would have been "sorted" with the 2016 bike as it does the clutch blending I am looking for...

 

Finding out that the 2016 bike was about to be released (a few days after I took delivery of my 2015 model) annoyed me so much I've only ridden 250 miles on it since new. I spent the next few months trying to convince myself that I would get used to the on/off chop, but I took the bike out today and I was disappointed again.

 

My question is, can my 2015 bike be upgraded with the 2016 DCT software?

 

I guess this question is for anyone working at Honda (or a dealership) or others in the know....

 

Keen to "bond" with the bike again, as I loaded it with every Givi accessory available intending to keep it forever, it cost me a small fortune and I am finding it unbelievable that I am now having to consider getting rid of it.....

 

Thanks!

 

Stan

 

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Just to add.... I know I can ask the dealer but I am trying to avoid the "blank stare" followed by "no" reaction....

 

Thanks!

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bazza

Hi Team, (not posted here before but wondering if you can help with a query)

 

as a manual rider I have always been gentle on the clutch and throttle, but I've decided the DCT on my 2015 750X bike isn't smooth enough changing up and down when moving slowly through London traffic.

 

If I was living outside London I would be perfectly happy with it.

 

But low speed throttle is a constant feature of negotiating London traffic and I find there is too much on/off chop for me in the lower gears. There is not enough clutch blending going on....

 

I bought the bike at the end of last year unaware that the 2016 bike was about to appear in the showroom.

 

I now realise I would have been "sorted" with the 2016 bike as it does the clutch blending I am looking for...

 

Finding out that the 2016 bike was about to be released (a few days after I took delivery of my 2015 model) annoyed me so much I've only ridden 250 miles on it since new. I spent the next few months trying to convince myself that I would get used to the on/off chop, but I took the bike out today and I was disappointed again.

 

My question is, can my 2015 bike be upgraded with the 2016 DCT software?

 

I guess this question is for anyone working at Honda (or a dealership) or others in the know....

 

Keen to "bond" with the bike again, as I loaded it with every Givi accessory available intending to keep it forever, it cost me a small fortune and I am finding it unbelievable that I am now having to consider getting rid of it.....

 

Thanks!

 

Stan

Bet you arent the only one Stan- the only good thing is you havent used it much - so it should sell at a good price if our geeks can't come up with a solution!

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embee

Can't answer your query definitively, but I don't think so.

 

A slight deviation though, something you can try is a simple "ECU reset" procedure which seems to work for some (though it's still a bit in the air as to whether it really is a formal procedure, but hey ho). See http://www.nc700.co.uk/index.php?/topic/4779-resetting-the-ecu-ecm/?hl=reset

It costs nothing and does no harm so well worth a try. Basically all it requires is disconnect the battery for a while, then reconnect and start the bike and allow it to warm up at idle WITHOUT TOUCHING THE THROTTLE AT ALL, until the fan kicks in. In theory it allows the ECU to "learn" the fuelling feedback correction and adapt itself, assuming it actually does. If it does anything it should make the driveability a little better off closed throttle.

 

There is also a clutch initiation procedure which allows the DCT management to learn the clutch take-up, but I wonder if your issue is really driveability on the throttle.

 

Since you're only at 250mls I'd suggest taking it out for some longer runs to get it properly run-in and get the first service out of the way before really passing final judgement. Have you tried all the DCT options? S,D and manual can all be used to get round certain characteristics which might not be ideal for your use.

 

Adjusting the throttle cable free play can also help with driveability, I prefer a minimum amount of free play. Adjust it at the cable where it exits the twistgrip, there is a rubber boot over the adjuster. Try it at just the slightest free play when the throttle is closed (note -  all this is doing is removing free play between the 2 cables, it will not stop the throttle closing properly providing there is still some free play).

Edited by embee
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Guest phantom309

highly unlikely it can be done . as when most companies do a change like this they make changes to stop this happening , so you have to buy the new one to get the new engine maps 

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I agree with Murray, get some miles on the bike before making a decision. Loads of folks run the older models into London every day with no problems at all - it's what it was designed for after all. In addition, make sure your dealer has set your final drive chain tension correctly as this will also affect gear change quality.

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Guest machinman

I agree and have said it before, the DCT is crap in traffic. It's up and down the box and not smooth at all. Everywhere else I say it really shines.

I find the best way is to ride in manual when there is any traffic or start/stop work

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fred_jb

I suggest you try the clutch calibration process once the bike is run in, or ask the dealer to do it at the first service - it is simple to do and there should be no charge for doing it.  It is documented on the forum somewhere if you wanted to do it yourself.

 

I would also avoid D mode while running in - it changes gear too often and at too low a speed for each gear so tends to cause the engine to lug, which is both a bit uncomfortable for the rider and can't be great for the engine while it is new and tight.

 

Adjusting excess slack out of the throttle as embee suggests is very good advice, it can make a surprising difference to smoothness of gear changes on a manual bike, so I suspect would also improve the DCT.  Also worth checking that the engine idle speed is not excessively low as this could also make for lumpy gear changes.  Once warmed up I think it should be around 1000 rpm on the NC, though I'm sure someone will chip in the the correct figure if that is not right.

 

Also, just in case you might be doing this in manual mode - don't try to shut the throttle on up changes or blip it on down changes - this just upsets the DCT and makes for very jerky gear changes.

 

Fred

Edited by fred_jb
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Guest bonekicker

Stan get the bike out again--get some miles on it--get out of traffic--take it out of D mode put S mode on and it is a completely different bike --having down only 250 miles is not a very good test for the bike  :ermm:

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Tonyj

i only use sport in town as the shift process is to busy , this is mainly when i require slow control or a settled speed for filtering . use manual otherwise then I'm sure you will bond again ,also use the rear brake to settle the bike it also smooths/disguises the changes at low speed . the only seamless change will be from a cvt 

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According to the DCT system diagram on page 12-7 of the workshop manual there are 3 terminals that are grounded (PG1 CONNECTOR B12, PG2 CONNECTOR A23, and PG2 CONNECTOR A24). I'm guessing that these are the PCM programing pins (on the assumption that PG is for program). Unless someone had some insider knowledge on which programmer hardware, and development environment and how to use it then its hard to say what is possible. A unit would have to be reverse engineered in order to find out. If this was tried on a bike as an experiment there is the risk of bricking the PCM unit and rendering the whole bike unusable. There is nothing in the manual that covers reprogramming the DCM or the PGM-FI unit.

Edited by djsb
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Guest sykospain

¿ Anyone with a direct line to a knowledgeable Honda UK exec to whom they can make a formal request as to whether the firm intends to issue a DCT s/ware upgrade like Windows do with a Service Pack ?  Surely not rocket-science, only a company policy issue.

 

¿ But wouldn't it be wonderful ?

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Thanks guys,

 

some very useful tips there, I'll do the ECU reset and the clutch re-calibration to give the bike a new baseline. I've also taken up any surplus slack in the chain. I didn't think of manual mode, that's something I'll play with.

 

I took a new 2016 DCT model out for a brief test ride over the weekend, the ride was less than half an hour (and mostly around a supermarket carpark), from what I could tell, the only noticeable DCT difference between my bike (and the new model) is there are no clunks on the changes down.

 

Dealer was prepared to give me £5K for mine which mean't a new one would cost me £1700 extra (though I could probably get more for mine privately as it's spotless). The exhaust has certainly given the 2016 model some character and possibly some extra torque. I like all the other improvements too but the difference in price is going to cost too much...

 

I opened a ticket with Honda UK (and as you guessed) they confirmed that the 2015 ECU can't be upgraded with 2016 software. I haven't checked to see if the ECU hardware is the same between the models, but even if it is I guess the fact that the new model has a new dash and 3 sport modes (and a different exhaust) means the 2016 software wouldn't suit the 2015 bike.

 

I'll be taking the bike out more and I feel alot happier now that it should be possible to find a sweet spot in manual mode 

 

Ta!

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest The Ronin

When filtering I always use S mode or manual. S mode holds the gears for longer, also I found a K&N air filter gives a slightly longer gear before changing. At worst, you can judge when it's going to shift and just keep it below/above those revs. I have not had a problem riding the dct at slow speeds at all and think it actually is very controllable once you understand how it works. The DCT lets me concentrate on the road more, especially when filtering or in busy traffic.

Edited by The Ronin
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  • 2 years later...
Griff

I just happened upon this thread after a search. I have an X-Adv, a 2017 bike with the latest for 2017 DCT . I am retired so commuting was never involved with this bike. However I very rarely but occasionally venture into the city on the bike and in heavy traffic I find the gear change in the lowest gears, particularly 1st and 2nd, a bit jerky. It is particularly so on the change from 2nd to 1st if I am trickling along at funeral pace. 

 

I see above that the OP was of the opinion that a jerky change would be eliminated with 2016 software. Well not so. It is still somewhat there with 2017 software. Out in the open countryside the changes are excellent, except if I have to drop from 2nd to 1st on the likes of a Hardknott type hairpin. That is the only real glitch in the system for me and is also a reason why, if I were commuting again, I would revert to a scooter with belt drive auto. Imho it is better than DCT in snail traffic. I am open to correction or suggestions.   

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poldark

Have you done a clutch recalibration?

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Wedgepilot

A clutch recal can help, but I do find in snail pace traffic you can catch the DCT out very occasionally. Switching to S mode always works for me, as it changes gear less often.

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Griff

Thanks for the input. Never tried the clutch recal. Tbh this is only an issue at snail pace in heavy traffic in the bottom two gears. Rest of the time the system is faultless. 

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Griff

Just an update. I did some testing today and discovered a couple of things. One was that there was a faint tendency for the bike to creep while stopped in first gear. Another was that the clutch was on a hair trigger with the throttle on take off. Another was that the twistgrip barrel was dry and not moving very smoothly. What is sure is that the dry twistgrip was contributing to the lack of smoothness in the lowest gears. The hair trigger clutch was also. 

 

I did the DCT recal and immediately this cured the "hair trigger" there is now a bit of slack in the clutch on take off and this is good. The creeping has also stopped. The gear changes might be a little smoother but I am not sure of this. I greased the twistgrip barrell with some silicone grease and this has helped greatly. I also took some more slack out of the cables and there is now virtually no slack in them. 

 

The end product is a much nicer throttle/DCT relationship that is much easier to live with. I suspect that a periodic recalibration will do no harm at all, especially if there is a change of oil brand or viscosity. Many thanks for the helpful input.  

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SteveThackery
12 hours ago, Griff said:

Just an update. I did some testing today and discovered a couple of things. One was that there was a faint tendency for the bike to creep while stopped in first gear.

 

 

Yes, that's normal and deliberate.

 

12 hours ago, Griff said:

Another was that the clutch was on a hair trigger with the throttle on take off.

 

Mine is like that, too, although I've never considered it to be a problem.

 

12 hours ago, Griff said:

Another was that the twistgrip barrel was dry and not moving very smoothly.

 

Definitely not normal and well worth fixing.

 

I've recalibrated my DCT a few times now and I'm not entirely happy with it.  When warmed up it behaves perfectly, but for the first mile or so after a cold start the clutch engagements are jerky.  Also, occasionally delayed slightly when going from 1st to 2nd - the engine note rises as the clutches change over.  Definitely not right, although I've no idea what to do about it.  It's as if the oil is too thick when cold.

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Guest machinman
On 17/05/2018 at 21:49, Griff said:

I just happened upon this thread after a search. I have an X-Adv, a 2017 bike with the latest for 2017 DCT . I am retired so commuting was never involved with this bike. However I very rarely but occasionally venture into the city on the bike and in heavy traffic I find the gear change in the lowest gears, particularly 1st and 2nd, a bit jerky. It is particularly so on the change from 2nd to 1st if I am trickling along at funeral pace. 

 

I see above that the OP was of the opinion that a jerky change would be eliminated with 2016 software. Well not so. It is still somewhat there with 2017 software. Out in the open countryside the changes are excellent, except if I have to drop from 2nd to 1st on the likes of a Hardknott type hairpin. That is the only real glitch in the system for me and is also a reason why, if I were commuting again, I would revert to a scooter with belt drive auto. Imho it is better than DCT in snail traffic. I am open to correction or suggestions.   

Always been a problem, theirs no fix. Just leave in manual mode and roll on and off the throttle.

Works perfect. 

Their is nothing wrong with your bike. Enjoy

 

Edited by machinman
Typo again
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embee
22 minutes ago, SteveThackery said:

  Definitely not right, although I've no idea what to do about it.  It's as if the oil is too thick when cold.

Out of interest, what oil are you using Steve?

I've found a 50/50 mix of Castrol Power1 (semi-synth) 10/30 and 10/40 works very nicely in my 700 Integra. According to the spec sheets their oils are generally near the bottom limit for the viscosity bands, so although not strictly technically correct the mix should give something effectively nearer a mid 10/30 spec. I do however also have an oil/water cooler (heat transfer device anyway) fitted which helps speed up the oil warm-up a bit and ought to stabilise the oil temp a bit.

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Griff
22 minutes ago, SteveThackery said:

 

Yes, that's normal and deliberate.

 

 

Mine is like that, too, although I've never considered it to be a problem.

 

 

Definitely not normal and well worth fixing.

 

I've recalibrated my DCT a few times now and I'm not entirely happy with it.  When warmed up it behaves perfectly, but for the first mile or so after a cold start the clutch engagements are jerky.  Also, occasionally delayed slightly when going from 1st to 2nd - the engine note rises as the clutches change over.  Definitely not right, although I've no idea what to do about it.  It's as if the oil is too thick when cold.

 

I'm not sure that the creep is deliberate, especially now that it has gone from mine after the recalibration. 

 

I am wondering if you should consider a change of oil brand just to eliminate that as a possible cause of your issue. I have noticed that while various brands specify a particular viscosity say 10/40, I suspect that not all of them are actually exactly the same viscosity and indeed the different manufacturers have various differing properties that might affect such a sensitive system in different ways. Just a thought. . 

 

Lastly my recal was done after at least 60kms on the road so the motor was good and hot. I am aware that the system will not allow the recal if the oil is too cool but I suspect it is best done when the motor is well up to operating temperature.  

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