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Front brake.

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Trev
On 7/27/2020 at 17:28, Andy m said:

 

I've never seen any recordable data that says brake lines swell any differently braided or not. They swell because 50 bar will do that, but a bit of wire wrapping will mostly just give the rubber hose something to compress against. Spong cake in a box is still spongy. The braiding is there to stop external stuff doing damage. 

 

Now, why will this cause howls of "but my sisters boyfriend knew a bloke...." on any bike forum? 

 

1. When they fit the hoses they bleed the brakes. 

2. When you spent £££ for shiny it HAS to be better. 

 

Andy

 

 

 

When I replaced the original (or at least I think it was) rubber front brake hose on my 1972 XS650 I decided to go for another rubber hose, in fact the Yamaha part, so it looked exactly as standard yet still performed better...... and guess what, it did. The difference in bulge, measured through my calibrated finger and thumb, was significant, the improvement in braking less so but still very, very noticeable.

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Tex
31 minutes ago, Trev said:

 

When I replaced the original (or at least I think it was) rubber front brake hose on my 1972 XS650 I decided to go for another rubber hose, in fact the Yamaha part, so it looked exactly as standard yet still performed better...... and guess what, it did. The difference in bulge, measured through my calibrated finger and thumb, was significant, the improvement in braking less so but still very, very noticeable.


Braided brake hoses were a useful performance aid all through the 70’s and 80’s but, like all things (OK, like MOST things) the standard kit has improved beyond measure since then. These days there’s no performance advantage really in using them. In Trev’s case merely replacing a 48 year old (!) standard hose with a new standard hose would be more than enough. I do have a braided hose on my Bonnie, but that’s because I needed a longer one when I uprated the caliper and the nice folks at HEL knocked me one up. And they were really chuffed when I insisted on paying for it too. :niceone:

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Tonyj
22 hours ago, MatBin said:

Sailors used to wear an ear ring in case they got swept overboard and it could then be used to pay for their funeral, we all knew that didn't we?

 

I was under the impression it was because they liked a bit of musical theatre:0)

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Defender

Back on the subject we started out on :fear:?

I do wonder how much difference in braking performance there is between the two piston caliper fitted to the '750' models (2015>) and the earlier triple piston caliper C-ABS versions (2012 - 2014), with more friction area on the disc and the third piston to apply the pressure? 

I haven't ridden the two types of brakes back to back to be able to make any comparison, also assuming that everything else on the two bikes was exactly the same so as close a test as possible could be made.

I know that Nissin triple piston calipers are used as an upgrade for the front brake on the first generation of Hinckley Triumph Bonnevilles 790cc & 865cc (2001 - 2016), in place of the original Nissin twin piston caliper.

 

 

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MatBin

I would find it hard to believe Honda would put an inferior brake on a newer model, perhaps there were other changes to the caliper that allowed them to move to twin instead of triple pot, maybe the twin pot can exert the required force to lock a wheel so triple pot is overkill?

Were the triple pot calipers linked and one pot used via foot brake? As most bikers traditionally only use the rear pedal to activate the rear brake maybe Honda felt they could do away with the interlink and therefore the 3rd pot?

 

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Andy m
Posted (edited)

The number of pots tells you about the same as knowing how many cylinders an engine has, two big ones might produce more effort than three little ones. Even then it's mostly about feel, so how how good a match to the master cylinder.

 

No bike made this century is short of braking ability, which is especially true when you think most crash recordings show the driver only requested 40%G when the brake will produce 55%+ in a lot of cases. You need a cable operated drum to get to something that won't overwhelm the tyre. A well matched master and calliper, good rider position, suspension etc. increase the chances a rider will actually use what is there. Hair triggers and spongy stuff will do the job, but not if the rider doesn't trust them. 

 

Having only ridden a 2016 NC750S I don't know which felt better. I suspect the linked system worked better for those who would just let it work. All the bike's meet the same type approval MFDD (Europe) and minimum stopping distance (US) criterea. 

 

Andy

Edited by Andy m
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ste7ios

2012-2014  models have Combined-ABS. The middle piston is activated only with the rear pedal, after a pressure threshold...

 

Andy may describe it better than me with my poorly English.

 

As they say...

 

Q5. Are Honda's Combined Brake systems designed to shorten braking distances?

A. Motorcycle brake operation can differ widely depending on rider experience, road conditions, speed and other factors. One characteristic of Combined brakes is that their systems are designed to provide more of a sense of smooth stability than motorcycles not equipped with linked front and rear brakes, allowing riders to operate them with a greater degree of confidence and ease. Although not specifically designed to shorten braking distances, they do contribute significantly toward making it easier for a wider range of riders to confidently realize effective braking control and shorter stopping distances, regardless of experience and acquired riding technique.

 

https://global.honda/innovation/technology/motorcycle/tech-views/vol02_cbs/qa.html

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Defender
57 minutes ago, Andy m said:

The number of pots tells you about the same as knowing how many cylinders an engine has, two big ones might produce more effort than three little ones. Even then it's mostly about feel, so how how good a match to the master cylinder.

No bike made this century is short of braking ability, which is especially true when you think most crash recordings show the driver only requested 40%G when the brake will produce 55%+ in a lot of cases. You need a cable operated drum to get to something that won't overwhelm the tyre. A well matched master and calliper, good rider position, suspension etc. increase the chances a rider will actually use what is there. Hair triggers and spongy stuff will do the job, but not if the rider doesn't trust them. 

Having only ridden a 2016 NC750S I don't know which felt better. I suspect the linked system worked better for those who would just let it work. All the bike's meet the same type approval MFDD (Europe) and minimum stopping distance (US) criterea. 

 

Andy

Thank you Andy for answering, I was hoping you would, your wealth of experience in this field.

I think you've hit the nail on the head with the line I've highlighted, I recall in quite a few previous discussions on braking many people commenting that they don't use the rear brake and some claiming it as being redundant?

I'm a big user of the rear brake on any bike I've had, so perhaps the Combined Brake System works well for me.

I quoted the upgrade used by some Triumph riders as it's a bike I have some knowledge of and it's reasonably similar to the NC's in weight and power/performance etc?

 

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Defender
5 hours ago, MatBin said:

I would find it hard to believe Honda would put an inferior brake on a newer model, perhaps there were other changes to the caliper that allowed them to move to twin instead of triple pot, maybe the twin pot can exert the required force to lock a wheel so triple pot is overkill?

Were the triple pot calipers linked and one pot used via foot brake? As most bikers traditionally only use the rear pedal to activate the rear brake maybe Honda felt they could do away with the interlink and therefore the 3rd pot?

 

I think perhaps the C-ABS system is easier to get the best of, as mentioned above, but only if you use the rear brake to a good extent?

As for the ability to lock the brakes/wheels I think I can recall two instances when the ABS has kicked it, but I'm not sure which end had caused the activation:blink:, I'm just glad that it worked as advertised:ahappy:.

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Trev

I was also a fan of the C-ABS on my 2012 NC700X, it was excellent when two up for gentle braking as seemed to let the bike brake 'flatter' and combined with the DCT it made the bike very comfortable for a pillion. Probably cost cutting on Honda's part to delete from later bikes.

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Graham NZ

The calipers on some older Triumph triples and some Kawasakis were six piston, not three.  I made that mod to my '97 Trophy.  A huge improvement.

 

We need to careful when uprating a front brake.  Will the forks cope with it?  I have my doubts that the NC ones would cope very well.  Fitting the whole front end from an X-Adv seems like a much better idea.

 

I once went to a lot of trouble and expense to graft a second disk to my R100 GS.  It wasn't a good idea because when given hard application the forks seemed to want to twist in the clamps and the steering wondered.

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outrunner
1 hour ago, Graham NZ said:

The calipers on some older Triumph triples and some Kawasakis were six piston, not three.  I made that mod to my '97 Trophy.  A huge improvement.

So much so that no one uses them anymore, from a maintenance point of view they are a pain in the arse.

 

Andy.

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SteveThackery

Going back to the OP's question.....  Most people who complain about brakes not being powerful enough on modern bikes are actually complaining about the effort required at the lever for a given braking force.

 

The NC I had would definitely lock up the front wheel on dry tarmac (to be more accurate, it would begin to lock it up and the ABS would then take over).  If a brake can lock up the wheel (or kick off the ABS) on dry tarmac then it is as "powerful" as it needs to be - it is not possible to slow down any quicker, because the friction between tyre and road is what determines the ultimate deceleration.

 

So, by that measure, the NC front brake is definitely powerful enough.

 

HOWEVER, it does need a pretty hard pull to achieve that.  My F800GT has twin disks and requires a lot less force on the lever for a given braking force.  This makes them "nicer" or "easier" to use, in my opinion.  BUT - ultimately they are no more effective at stopping because, once again, the limit is set by the friction between the road and tyre.

 

Put simply, general braking requires less effort on the F800GT than on the NC, but ultimately both will lock the front wheel and kick off the ABS.  It's just that you have to pull the lever on the NC a lot harder.

 

Perhaps we should drop the term "powerful" with regards to brakes, because it isn't what most people actually want*.  Rather, they want lower lever effort.  You can achieve that with softer pads, by changing the caliper to one with a greater piston area or by adding a second caliper.  The latter two will increase the movement required at the lever, so be careful you don't end up with a lever that comes back to the bars.

 

---------

*I said powerful brakes aren't what most people want, they actually want less lever pressure.  That is probably true of almost all riders.  However, racing is one exception and perhaps extreme road conditions are another.  Brakes work by converting kinetic energy into heat energy and dissipating it.  Converting kinetic into heat is what the pads rubbing on the discs do.  The resultant heat is dissipated by radiation and the flow of air across the disc.  Two discs will dissipate twice the amount of heat for a given temperature rise, which is good because if the temperature rises too high the pads (and sometimes the brake fluid) will lose their characteristics and temporarily fail.  The need to dissipate lots of kinetic energy arises when:

 

1/ It's a heavy bike (thus has a lot of kinetic energy), and/or

2/ It is frequently decelerated hard from very high speeds (like when racing), and/or

3/ The bike is descending a very long, very steep hill

 

Clearly the manufacturer must take into account the expected usage of a bike when designing the braking system.  And clearly anyone who takes ANY bike outside of its anticipated usage envelope may have to upgrade the brakes, the tyres, the suspension, etc.  There is nothing wrong with the NC per se - like all bikes it is designed to meet a particular usage envelope.

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Andy m

Spot on with a small comment on

 

5 minutes ago, SteveThackery said:

 dissipate twice the amount of heat for a given temperature rise, which is good because if the temperature rises too high the pads (and sometimes the brake fluid) will lose their characteristics and temporarily fail.  The need to dissipate lots of kinetic energy arises 

 

The need to dissipate excessive heat in a road brake is so rare as to be almost inconsequential. You have to test for fade of course, but how many riders go down past Adolf's old place (in the good old days we got to play with DAFs down there so the discs were cherry red and the stink terrible ) then need to do an emergency stop? In any case you still have excess performance and the rider will only demand less than half through fear of locking up. 

 

Usually a road brake is way below optimum temperature and you want to heat it faster. The single is better at this. Again though it doesn't matter because you have excess and will only demand half. 

 

The second disk remains a running cost and unsprung weight. 

 

Andy

 

3 minutes ago, SteveThackery said:

 

 

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MatBin

I think part of the reason people complain about the NC front brake is they are coming from a sports bike which as Steve says above requires less effort by the rider's hand to achieve rapid deceleration, but remember a lot of riders who buy the NC are new riders who in an emergency might well grab a great handful of front brake, which if setup like sports bike would possibly overwhelm the ABS and tyre adhesion resulting in law suits in the good old USA. In addition a single disc is cheaper to produce, especially as the rear is also cut from the same plate, so less material waste, and we all know that the NC is a budget bike in a lot of respects.

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slowboy
8 hours ago, MatBin said:

I think part of the reason people complain about the NC front brake is they are coming from a sports bike which as Steve says above requires less effort by the rider's hand to achieve rapid deceleration, but remember a lot of riders who buy the NC are new riders who in an emergency might well grab a great handful of front brake, which if setup like sports bike would possibly overwhelm the ABS and tyre adhesion resulting in law suits in the good old USA. In addition a single disc is cheaper to produce, especially as the rear is also cut from the same plate, so less material waste, and we all know that the NC is a budget bike in a lot of respects.


Good point. My Yamaha Fazer with the blue spot four pot callipers on twin discs is very sharp compared to an NC. It doesn’t stop any better (no abs either) but it does feel like it does. You can certainly shriek the front tyre with them and braking in corners needs a bit of finesse compared to the NC. 
Then again I can always go out on the C90, the brakes on that (single leading shoe drums) only get shrieks out of the rider😂😂

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Andy m
16 hours ago, MatBin said:

overwhelm the ABS

 You won't defeat a working ABS, it has enough flow capability to dump any amount of braking up to and including a transition from dry tarmac to ice and back. The transition test in Europe requires clear, full cycles at the transition, the US one a stopping distance. It can cycle fast enough to allow for changes in demand from releasing the control to fully applying it mid cycle. This isn't a specific test but is covered in K search efficiency when you keep dialing in brake until you get a lock to find what the surface will do and then the ABS has to match it to 90%. Most ABS systems will record only a 1% variation to this theoretical value (the theory is as though its groundhog day and you can just keep trying until you find a brake level that works). 

 

Back to feel though, the usual situation is that the rider doesn't demand anything like the available braking. It's fear of locking up or going over the bars. Until me have EBA and CM, feel matched to the riders expectations may well indeed be good. 

 

Andy

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SteveThackery
On 8/2/2020 at 07:58, slowboy said:

Then again I can always go out on the C90, the brakes on that (single leading shoe drums) only get shrieks out of the rider😂😂

 

Reminds me of my Ducati 250 Mk3, which had dual twin leading shoes on the front.  That was sharp.  All too easy to get chirrups from the front tyre.

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baben

I had a Yamaha 100 where the front brake was less effective than putting your feet down.

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Defender
On 01/08/2020 at 23:08, MatBin said:

I think part of the reason people complain about the NC front brake is they are coming from a sports bike which as Steve says above requires less effort by the rider's hand to achieve rapid deceleration, but remember a lot of riders who buy the NC are new riders who in an emergency might well grab a great handful of front brake, which if setup like sports bike would possibly overwhelm the ABS and tyre adhesion resulting in law suits in the good old USA. In addition a single disc is cheaper to produce, especially as the rear is also cut from the same plate, so less material waste, and we all know that the NC is a budget bike in a lot of respects.

That's a very good point, but also possibly rider expectations, I PX'd a 2011 'Street Triple for my NC'X, but I didn't expect the brakes to be as sharp as the 'ST's, the nature of the bikes is completely different, performance, perceived use?

Another point that I don't think has been mentioned here is the suspension, yes we all know that the NC's suspension is medioco and that has an effect on how the brakes feel too?  

Yes as stated previously, I've had the brakes on my NC'X activate the ABS on two occasions, so there's more than enough braking and grip to call upon.

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Graham NZ

It's not that a brake has a single disc so much as how it is made to operate.

 

The huge rim-mounted single semi-floating front disc with a 6-pot caliper on my Buell has as much stopping power as any twin disked bike I've ever ridden.  The problem with it is that it lacks ABS.  The first time I 'gave it a really good squeeze' it really scared me as the front wheel locked and I thought I was a goner.  Since then I know I must use only my weak forefinger for maximum safe-braking.

 

On my SD it required a complete reversal of mindset and for a really hard stop.  Now I need to give it a handful, but I admit to having a weak hand strength.  Opening new jam jars needs a tool in our house now.

 

On any bike, when making an emergency stop it's vital to look where you want to end up when you're stopped.  Beside any vehicle ahead is a better target than the rear of the vehicle.  'Look where you want to go not at what you want to avoid'.  Of course we all know that don't we?

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Graham NZ
10 hours ago, Defender said:

Yes as stated previously, I've had the brakes on my NC'X activate the ABS on two occasions, so there's more than enough braking and grip to call upon.

 

Oh no they're not!  During my recent attempt to stop from high speed (180kph) I was applying the front brake as hard as I could and giving the rear as much as I could too.  No ABS intervention felt.  No apparent tyre adhesion loss either.  No rear wheel lift.  However I am pleased to report that the bike did track straight throughout so the 41mm forks must be up to it, which is a bit surprising with a single eccentric disc and only single bolts holding the legs into the clamps.

 

Even weak riders should be able to get the ABS to intervene at just about any legal speed.  I have had the front ABS activate noticeably when testing the modified front suspension for dive travel but that was from about only 60kph.

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jeremyr62
1 hour ago, Graham NZ said:

 

Oh no they're not!  During my recent attempt to stop from high speed (180kph) I was applying the front brake as hard as I could and giving the rear as much as I could too.  No ABS intervention felt.  No apparent tyre adhesion loss either.  No rear wheel lift.  However I am pleased to report that the bike did track straight throughout so the 41mm forks must be up to it, which is a bit surprising with a single eccentric disc and only single bolts holding the legs into the clamps.

 

Even weak riders should be able to get the ABS to intervene at just about any legal speed.  I have had the front ABS activate noticeably when testing the modified front suspension for dive travel but that was from about only 60kph.

 

There must be something wrong with it then. 

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outrunner
8 minutes ago, jeremyr62 said:

 

There must be something wrong with it then. 

What he said, you should be able to activate the ABS from any speed or it's pointless being there.

 

Andy.

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Steve Case

Its really easy to get the ABS working on these but its really difficult to detect its operation unless there's a lot of wheel slip.

 

If i carelessly jab the front anchor as quickly and as hard as I may then I will get a faint bubbly sensation from the brake lever, at the time the outside temp is 24C so the grip is good and therefore very little slip.

 

However if someone other than me wishes to try this across a muddy field at a decent lick then I guarantee you'll feel the ABS operate for the few seconds before ploughing the field with your face, I also believe we need video evidence as proof.

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