Wurth dry chain lubricant - is it worth it?

[DMB 1,341]

I'd love to know how much more it would add to the cost of an Integra if Honda were to make it with shaft drive.  The Integra sells in small numbers to discerning buyers.  If the extra cost were, say, £500 I am sure that would put off fewer buyers than the ones who would be attracted to a "Deauville replacement" (as the Deauville was always relatively expensive).  As I have commented before, it would be interesting, too, to know what effect shaft drive would have on mpg.  Some of you out there must have an inkling, coming from engineering backgrounds.

[embee 7,288]

Shaft drive doesn't add much loss, not as much as some folk would have you believe. A half decent bevel drive only loses about 3% typically, though the percentage efficiency does vary according to the amount of load applied, viscous losses are always there from the oil so there is a fixed loss, but the power transmission efficiency should be around 98%. Even allowing for 2 sets of bevels (each end of the shaft like on the Deauville) you should still lose only 6% or so. A well maintained chain is a similar order, a badly maintained chain can be worse.

 

The Deauville design uses a stand-alone front bevel box which bolts onto the gearbox and takes an oil feed from the engine, a similar system would be perfectly feasible for the NC. It would require a change in the way the swingarm mounts but perfectly do-able.

 

The only downsides are cost and weight really.

[Andy m 23,513]

Depends on the design. Grease nipples and a UJ are one thing, splines you remove the swing arm to grease once a year and a bevel box full of oil and molly that needs draining are another. Shafts can just gather the cost and time into bigger lumps.

 

Another vote for the MZ box-tube here.

 

Andy

[Rev Ken 6,331]

Why not belt drive? Cheaper than shaft, less modification, and I doubt it is much more than chain.

[Mike5100 2,061]

27 minutes ago, Rev Ken said:

Why not belt drive? Cheaper than shaft, less modification, and I doubt it is much more than chain.

Because this is a thread about Wurth dry chain lubricant and it would ruin a belt 

Mike

[Mike5100 2,061]

Latest report:

Chain at 8k miles cleaned with paraffin and the kettenmax.  Last 600 miles have been in nasty conditions (for a chain) with a salt spray slick off the back wheel most of the time.

I am more impressed than I expected after the last report.  No seizing links yet and the rust hasn't got any worse.  In fact the outside faces of the links are immaculate, and I have concluded that all the rust on the chain is due to inadequate drying procedures after washing the bike.  Until recently the front and the back of the chain were getting no Wurth sprayed on them (or rather not directly) but the inner run and outside links get very efficiently dried with my sidekick air blaster.  It is of course very difficult to direct the air blast on to the faces of the links that are adjacent to the wheel.  I can now apply Wurth to those surfaces via my modification to the greaseninja, but I don't think that will solve the problem.  I've got to devise a way of using the sidekick on the back side of the chain.

One disappointing note - most of the roller surfaces are now discoloured and it's got to be a film of rust.

Mike

 

[Swissheavy 186]

Mike I've switched to gearbox oil for the winter period. I will be switching back to the Wurth dry lube after winter. The surface rust just put me off. 

[Guest machinman]

3 hours ago, Swissheavy said:

Mike I've switched to gearbox oil for the winter period. I will be switching back to the Wurth dry lube after winter. The surface rust just put me off. 

That's the way.

[Mike5100 2,061]

Salt is the killer.  Had a run to test altered suspension - it was about 40 minutes on wet salty roads.  Left the chain unwashed just overnight (maybe 12 hours).  Before the run the chain had been OK - I had paraffin cleaned it and retreated with the Wurth only about 50 miles before, and the rust that had developed previously had sort of gone or at least was not very visible.  After leaving the chain with wet salty spray on for 12 hours there were bright orange encrustations in lots of places.  This is BAD.  There's no way you can always get the hose out (sometimes it's frozen) and then dry the chain after every trip.

I have now washed the chain dried it throughly with the airblaster and then gone round it with paper towels, then applied more Wurth.  But I have now stepped beyond the manufacturers instructions.

The conclusion is that this stuff washes off when subjected to a jet of salty gritty water - maybe all chain lubricants do.

Mike

[Mike5100 2,061]

Does anyone know what is in SaltX http://saltx.com/saltx_info-faq.htm - or more particularly whether it would damage O-rings

Mike

[Mike5100 2,061]

The idea of rinsing your bike after every ride doesn't seem to me to be sound advice.  This fork leg has been rinsed for 4 or 5 minutes in water from a hose at about 9 deg c.  I don't think it made any impression on the crap from the road.  This pic was taken 24 hours later when the crud had dried back to exactly how it was before rinsing.

Mike

[ste7ios 469]

Rinsing the bike is the best you can do. Salt is very corrosive. Just ignore the rust on the brake discs. It's nothing... It's normal.

 

In general, a treatment with ACF50 or similar product will also help, especially the connectors.

 

Personally I prefer chain oil (it contains EP - like a 75W gear oil but it has a lower viscosity, and anticorrosion additives). In conjunction with an oiler of course... Oil will go everywhere and it will protect better the chain & the sprockets (because of EP).

 

And yes, rain will rinse the lubricant so you've to clean & lubricate again (or just increase the oil flow of an oiler).

 

Also note that the thin residue of paraffin on the chain may not allow the Wurth to bond 100% with the chain. Clean thoroughly with a chain cleaner and see how the Wurth goes...

[Mike5100 2,061]

45 minutes ago, ste7ios said:

 

Also note that the thin residue of paraffin on the chain may not allow the Wurth to bond 100% with the chain. Clean thoroughly with a chain cleaner and see how the Wurth goes...

Interesting thought Stelios.  

Mike

[Mike5100 2,061]

Found this in another thread.  It's a quote from Tsubaki's comprehensive guide to chains.

'The life of O-ring chain is usually determined by the durability of the O-ring. To improve the durability, there should be an oil film on the O-ring at all times. Even though it is a sealed chain, lubrication is required to extend the working life of the O-ring. Cleaning sprays may cause deterioration of the O-rings. Do not allow chains to air dry after washing, or to rust.'

 

So I guess that answers the question of hwther you need lubricant on an O-ring chain - you do - but I don't know what they mean by the last sentence.  It's impossible to get a chain completely dry by mopping it with cloths, and dying it with a sidekick airblaster gets all the water off but it is air-drying.  I guess this is OK though as long as you get the protective lubricant on straightaway?

Mike

[Tex 36,817]

Yes, I think when they say 'air drying' they mean leaving it for, say, 24 hours. Forced air drying and then applying the lube is fine. Corrosion takes time to form - deny it that time and you're on a winner.

 

Incidentally, I'm a big fan of  Tsubaki chains. The 520 on our race bikes is transmitting over 160 bhp (our 'best' engine makes 167) without problems. We get some of our consumables for free, but not chains, and the stuff we have to buy has to 'work'.

[Mike5100 2,061]

1 hour ago, Tex said:

Yes, I think when they say 'air drying' they mean leaving it for, say, 24 hours. Forced air drying and then applying the lube is fine. Corrosion takes time to form - deny it that time and you're on a winner.

 

Incidentally, I'm a big fan of  Tsubaki chains. The 520 on our race bikes is transmitting over 160 bhp (our 'best' engine makes 167) without problems. We get some of our consumables for free, but not chains, and the stuff we have to buy has to 'work'.

Right - you've sold me Simon.  Mind I guess what we need isn;t necessarily the same as what a racer needs (I'm thinking plating for corrosion protection)

Mike

 

[Tex 36,817]

We use 'X ring Gold' (or whatever they're called) the side plates have a gold finish which seems pretty durable. We have to run them with the absolute minimum of lube (chain lube being 'flung' onto the rear slick at 175mph would not be popular with the riders..) and only ever lube the rollers, never the side plates.

 

Now, when we crate the bikes up for their crossing to Australia we spray the exposed parts of the frames etc  (never the chains) with ACF50. Even so there are frequently small patches of corrosion that need scrubbing off when we get there. The bikes are at sea for 2.5 months, remember. There's a lot of salty air between the U.K. and Aus..

 

Never seen a spot of rust on a chain though, which makes me suspect that, given a reasonable bit of "looking after" they would be fine on a road bike.

[Mike5100 2,061]

After about 120 miles yesterday on salt slick roads I gave the chain a good dousing with the hose (bike on stand engine running).  Then a good air drying with the sidekick, but no further Wurth.  Took a look this morning and no spots of rust.  Will examine again tomorrow, but I think the critical thing is getting it dry rather than putting on more stuff.  Mind you the air was very dry last night and a few nights ago when I had the rust appearing, it was VERY damp and you could see where the salt had hygroscopised (I think Ive invented a new word) the water from the damp air.

BTW an indicator of previous OEM chains beginning to fail has been orange dust appearing on the nylon pad that stops the chain damaging the swing arm.  So far there is none with this chain, so despite the unsightly rust on some outer surfaces, the Wurth is probably doing its bit to keep the O-rings OK.

Mike

[Guest Hati]

1 hour ago, Mike5100 said:

BTW an indicator of previous OEM chains beginning to fail has been orange dust appearing on the nylon pad that stops the chain damaging the swing arm. 

 

You know where that rust comes from don't you?

[Mike5100 2,061]

2 hours ago, Hati said:

 

You know where that rust comes from don't you?

Inside the rollers behind the O-rings I would guess.  That's why I think the Wurth stuff is still doing its main job at the moment.

Mike

[Guest Hati]

7 hours ago, Mike5100 said:

Inside the rollers behind the O-rings I would guess.  That's why I think the Wurth stuff is still doing its main job at the moment.

Mike

 

Nope. It comes from under the rollers, the rollers that sit on the sprockets, the same rollers that roll on the plastic ridge of the swing arm protector. The same rollers that need most of the lubrication, much more so than the o-rings. If the rust would be coming from behind the o-rings, it would be greasy. That's what I was harping on about on page one, but hey, I get it. Ignorance is a bliss. Your bike, your chain, your money

[Mike5100 2,061]

11 hours ago, Hati said:

 

Nope. It comes from under the rollers, the rollers that sit on the sprockets, the same rollers that roll on the plastic ridge of the swing arm protector. The same rollers that need most of the lubrication, much more so than the o-rings. If the rust would be coming from behind the o-rings, it would be greasy. That's what I was harping on about on page one, but hey, I get it. Ignorance is a bliss. Your bike, your chain, your money

Errmm ... aren't we describing the same place Hati? I have assumed that the rust comes from inside ('under' if you like) the rollers once the O-ring has failed and the grease has gone.

Tsubaki say that lubrication of the O-rings is the critical factor.  If the Wurth stuff is a lubricant then the grease ninja is applying it in exactly the right places (over the O-rings) so it may just work.  Looking at the chain last night I am inclined to think that it's in good nick and the rust is only cosmetic damage in places that are not critical.  But we shall see if it's still like that in May.

Mike

[chris 357]

1 hour ago, Mike5100 said:

Errmm ... aren't we describing the same place Hati? I have assumed that the rust comes from inside ('under' if you like) the rollers once the O-ring has failed and the grease has gone.

Tsubaki say that lubrication of the O-rings is the critical factor.  If the Wurth stuff is a lubricant then the grease ninja is applying it in exactly the right places (over the O-rings) so it may just work.  Looking at the chain last night I am inclined to think that it's in good nick and the rust is only cosmetic damage in places that are not critical.  But we shall see if it's still like that in May.

Mike

The external part of the chain also needs lubrication.  The rollers contact spots with the sprockets in particular need lubrication,  not just the o-rings. Getting some overspray on the side plates also helps prevent them rusting.

 

Don't you think you're being a little bit excessively compulsive in trying to only apply the lube to the o-rings? A quick spray on the inside run and outer run of the chain gets the lube all over the chain and protects the whole thing.  Job done.

 

Better yet,  get something like a Tutoro auto oiler and top it up every 500 km or so. It lubes and cleans the chain so well you can nearly forget about the adjustment.

[Guest Hati]

1 hour ago, Mike5100 said:

Errmm ... aren't we describing the same place Hati? I have assumed that the rust comes from inside ('under' if you like) the rollers once the O-ring has failed and the grease has gone.

Tsubaki say that lubrication of the O-rings is the critical factor.  If the Wurth stuff is a lubricant then the grease ninja is applying it in exactly the right places (over the O-rings) so it may just work.  Looking at the chain last night I am inclined to think that it's in good nick and the rust is only cosmetic damage in places that are not critical.  But we shall see if it's still like that in May.

Mike

 

Mike: please go back to page one and have a look at the picture in the last post (mine). Find the purple bit. That is the roller that lives on the blue bit (bush) and is the part of the chain that makes direct contact with the sprockets. The MOST important lubrication is required between the purple roller and the blue bush. Keeping the o-ring lubricated is secondary to that. Your rust comes from between the purple and blue parts, the roller and the bush. Your sticky lubricants. such as Wurth, will NEVER make it into that tight spot. Only oil, CRC/WD-40 and similar very fluid lubricants will.

 

It's up to you what you choose to believe and what you ignore.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Hati

[Mike5100 2,061]

Ah yes - I see what you mean Hati.  I'm not choosing to believe or ignore anything really.  I'm testing whether Wurth's claims for their dry chain lubricant can see a crap OEM chain through a UK winter.  So far they seem to be holding up with no red dust and no seized links.

Having sprayed some of the Wurth stuff on to flat sheet steel, it goes on as a very thin fluid (the carrier presumably) and dries as an impossibly thin and invisible film (probably consisting of nothing at all ).  But the manufacturer claims this film is a lubricant   Are we saying that the carrier does not get this stuff into the tiny gaps and  if so are any of the non-fling lubricants able to penetrate between the blue and purple components?

Mike