DCT gone badly wrong!

[ste7ios 469]

This problem looks big enough to claim from Honda a recall...

[Mikdent 4,070]

40 minutes ago, ste7ios said:

This problem looks big enough for a Rocker v Nelmo showdown, handbags at dawn.

 

^^^^^^^^fixed^^^^^^^^

 

[Marvincon 1,197]

It's a good job this Forum is not held in a pub, there'd be blood and snot everywhere....😀 (Note the smiley)

[Spindizzy 7,109]

Nonsense, it will be Snakebite all round and a rendition of Kumbaya with a group hug 

[djsb 491]

There are 2 part numbers listed for the pin shifter 24315-HA0-000 and 24315-HL4-000. I've emailed Dobles mentioning this (together with my engine number/VIN/Reg number) and asked them which part number is the right one and also if Honda has issued any guidance or a recall about this. I'll let you all know when they reply.

[Andy m 23,473]

22 hours ago, Spindizzy said:

... Snakebite all round....

 

OMG that brings back some painful memories. It was the choice of poison at Options Nightclub, Kingston, in the early 90's. Whatever you ordered (unless it was more expensive), you got Snakebite. Fosters and White Lightning in a ratio defined by how out of date they were. The headache on Thursday morning lasted until the second pint on Friday night. You'd have been safer using floor cleaner to wash down poppers. The only plus was that the government paid for most of it.

 

Andy

 

 

[nigelspencer 15]

I picked up the bike yesterday, £218 for the part, a plug, some oil and labour. The part had sheared cleanly at the weld i.e. the weld had failed. Surely we are seeing enough of these for a recall? If that slowdown had happened to me 2 miles further down the road when I was on the motorway someone would have potentially gone into the back of me!

[djsb 491]

Did you have the part number of the new replacement part.The parts book lists 2 numbers. My dealer would not elaborate any further when I asked them. Thanks.

[embee 7,288]

I'm very surprised this is a welded part at all, but it has been mentioned in previous threads on this subject so I take it as read. I would have thought a part looking like that would be made as an upset forging with rolled threads, essentially the same manufacturing method as a conventional bolt or setscrew.

If the failures are indeed at a weld it's looking highly suspiciously like a batch issue with manufacturing methods at the heart of it, either incorrect process for the weld or heat treatment or possibly hydrogen embrittlement or suchlike. It would certainly explain why it would be affecting only a small production range (apparently) while the component part number has been in use for many years on many different Honda models.

A part like that should be extremely "tough", i.e. you should be able to hammer it into a bent shape without it snapping in a brittle manner. If it is over hard or chilled after welding without subsequent tempering etc it becomes more brittle.

[nigelspencer 15]

The part number listed - K24315HA0000 https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/view/24315-HA0-000?gclid=Cj0KEQiAlsrFBRCAxcCB54XElLEBEiQA_ei0DAkHTd26KnHd4S5dndM2Rtm3zx4kJXQwFLELAktA22MaArl78P8HAQ

The break was very clean, reminded me of when I was learning to solder and got a dry joint

 

Complete parts list

Pin/ Shifter

Gasket Reduc

Oil filter cartridge

washer, drain plug

element Oil filter

Oil

 

I've found the govt link to report dangerous defects with vehicles, tempted to report it

Edited February 26, 2017 by nigelspencer

[embee 7,288]

As a follow on to this thread, I decided to change the pin in mine before it breaks, that's not the sort of thing I want happening in the middle of a European tour. Most of the failures to date seem to have been early build 700 Integras, which is exactly what mine is, so quite a good candidate for a failure.

What a complete PITA the Integra is to work on!!!!!

I've had most of the plastics off before at some time, but it really is dreadful, all the parts are interlinked, you almost have to start at one end and work towards the other in order to get the panel off that you want.

Anyway, the mechanical stuff is straightforward enough, the only thing which surprised me was that the large outer support bearing for the clutch shaft dropped out when I removed the cover, it's a slip fit on the clutch centre and a slip fit in the housing, which meant it slipped off both. No problem.

 

Back to the offending pin, the corner fillet radius between the hex and the pivot pin section (for the gear selector pawl carrier) is pretty much sharp, there is essentially no fillet radius, so not an ideal situation for stress concentration. The part is also bright zinc plated, which assuming the piece is indeed welded is not a particularly good idea, it can lead to hydrogen embrittlement especially in welds, in my days we would not have used electro-plating on any such part inside an engine.

Anyway, I decided to make a new part from silver steel, a high grade tool steel suitable for shafts etc. I decided not to harden/temper it, I don't have controllable equipment for this and if you get it wrong it can end up hard but brittle, so I left it as it is supplied (annealed, but good tensile strength typically almost twice that of mild steel). The std pin is not particularly hard, you can easily mark it with a file, and there is a very slight wear ridge at the end of the part where the selector bears on it (20k miles), so I'm pretty happy the silver steel will work fine as is. I made the fillet radius as big as I could while still being clear of the selector pawl rocker bore chamfer., which is fairly generous. I left the flange slightly thicker too, at the expense of a little depth of the hex.

I made it very slightly longer than the OE part to ensure max bearing area, but the selector fork sits close to the end of it so not too much extra.

I'm rebuilding so hopefully all will be well. I'll take a look at the chain tensioner too while I've got all the bits off.

 

Old on left, new on right.

 

Edited April 7, 2017 by embee

[Guest Hati]

@ Murray: can I buy one off you? I know the 750 Integras did not have this issue (that I am aware of), but I feel better to have this sitting in my draw, just in case. I can do you PayPal gift so there is no cost involved to you.

[embee 7,288]

I'll be in touch by PM Hati. Very busy at the moment so it'll probably have to wait a while but I'm sure we can arrange something.

[djsb 491]

Maybe you could produce an engineering drawing that could be used to get these made by anyone who either has their own machining equipment (not me) or knows someone who can do the work.

I know someone at work who could maybe make one for me but without a drawing (in a software package of your choosing or just a scanned pencil and paper drawing) it's not possible.

Please consider this. Thanks.

[Tex 36,817]

I take my hat off to you, Murray. You're exactly what I would like to be (if I wasn't such a lazy git!).

[ontwowheels 19]

18 hours ago, embee said:

As a follow on to this thread, I decided to change the pin in mine before it breaks, that's not the sort of thing I want happening in the middle of a European tour. Most of the failures to date seem to have been early build 700 Integras, which is exactly what mine is, so quite a good candidate for a failure.

What a complete PITA the Integra is to work on!!!!!

I've had most of the plastics off before at some time, but it really is dreadful, all the parts are interlinked, you almost have to start at one end and work towards the other in order to get the panel off that you want.

Anyway, the mechanical stuff is straightforward enough, the only thing which surprised me was that the large outer support bearing for the clutch shaft dropped out when I removed the cover, it's a slip fit on the clutch centre and a slip fit in the housing, which meant it slipped off both. No problem.

 

Back to the offending pin, the corner fillet radius between the hex and the pivot pin section (for the gear selector pawl carrier) is pretty much sharp, there is essentially no fillet radius, so not an ideal situation for stress concentration. The part is also bright zinc plated, which assuming the piece is indeed welded is not a particularly good idea, it can lead to hydrogen embrittlement especially in welds, in my days we would not have used electro-plating on any such part inside an engine.

Anyway, I decided to make a new part from silver steel, a high grade tool steel suitable for shafts etc. I decided not to harden/temper it, I don't have controllable equipment for this and if you get it wrong it can end up hard but brittle, so I left it as it is supplied (annealed, but good tensile strength typically almost twice that of mild steel). The std pin is not particularly hard, you can easily mark it with a file, and there is a very slight wear ridge at the end of the part where the selector bears on it (20k miles), so I'm pretty happy the silver steel will work fine as is. I made the fillet radius as big as I could while still being clear of the selector pawl rocker bore chamfer., which is fairly generous. I left the flange slightly thicker too, at the expense of a little depth of the hex.

I made it very slightly longer than the OE part to ensure max bearing area, but the selector fork sits close to the end of it so not too much extra.

I'm rebuilding so hopefully all will be well. I'll take a look at the chain tensioner too while I've got all the bits off.

 

Old on left, new on right.

 

Knowledge such as this, and a willingness to share = priceless.

 

Thanks for posting.

[Guest Hati]

8 hours ago, embee said:

I'll be in touch by PM Hati. Very busy at the moment so it'll probably have to wait a while but I'm sure we can arrange something.

 

Brilliant, thank you!! I am in no rush, ready when you are.

[Tonyj 6,907]

All hail to embee . Bow down in front of the chosen one :0). . Fella I'm from a generation that would struggle to even find it in a parts fiche and buy one , let alone make it . I'm going to call you mcgyver for the stuff you make . Your schooling wasn't wasted , I'm starting to regret my claim to fame as never missing a Monday matinee:0) 

[Guest DervMan]

Many thanks for taking the time to upload this information @embee it's posts like yours that make forums so useful. 

[Trumpet 215]

He's an ENGINEER ( Look it up) A dying Breed.

[Tonyj 6,907]

Show off more like :0) 

[Tonyj 6,907]

Think someone's a bit jel as we say down here in Essex 

[embee 7,288]

On ‎08‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 14:05, djsb said:

Maybe you could produce an engineering drawing that could be used to get these made by anyone ........

The problem with doing a drawing for an engineer/manufacturer to use is that it needs to be fully dimensioned and toleranced, material spec and hardness etc specified, surface finish (smoothness), roundness etc. I can make a one-off from measurements of another part or a sketch on paper, but all the incidental stuff I make up as I go. You can't put that on a drawing ("make this feature sort of how you think is right"). I made the pin to be a "nice" fit in the bore of the rocker, I can't specify that, and I don't know what tolerances there are on the mating part so I can make one to fit the item I have in front of me, but it might be too tight in another example. If I try to specify too tight tolerances it means expensive manufacturing methods (grinding etc).

There is also a potential issue with liability, so it's not the sort of thing I get involved with usually, only when working for a company who provides the indemnity.

 

Since this seems to be a very isolated issue probably related to a batch of pins I'd suggest simply buying one from Honda, you're 99.99% guaranteed it'll be good. If parts are "unobtainable" it's a different story.

[djsb 491]

Yes your probably right and I'm worrying needlessly. As I'm not a mechanical engineer or machinist (electrical/electronics is my trade) I tend to forget the role that feel and practical experience has when making parts. And of course, you're right about liability. I wouldn't want to take the risk either. 

Anyway at least it's a known issue and hopefully, I'll have nothing to worry about.

[Guest Hati]

6 hours ago, djsb said:

Yes your probably right and I'm worrying needlessly. As I'm not a mechanical engineer or machinist (electrical/electronics is my trade) I tend to forget the role that feel and practical experience has when making parts. And of course, you're right about liability. I wouldn't want to take the risk either. 

Anyway at least it's a known issue and hopefully, I'll have nothing to worry about.

 

It's a 700 only (at least so far) issue, not 750 like your X!