First service at 600 miles

[DaveM59 1,603]

I can never fathom why owners of new bikes seem so reluctant to run them in properly (hard) as they never seem to keep them long enough anyway for any issues to occur.

[XXX 2,697]

On 5/25/2017 at 13:12, alhendo1 said:

Hi folks....a quick question for you please. ...how many miles over the 600 can you go without affecting /invalidating the warranty. ...anyone know. Thanks in advance. Alan.

If you switch your display from miles to kilometres you can easily go 1,000 without any problem. 

[Tex 36,817]

11 minutes ago, Defender said:

I remember many years ago reading that every Ferrari engine was turned over by an electric motor for 80 hours before being fitted in the car, so the new owner didn't have the bother of having to break the new engine in!

 

Interesting.. My dad had an old Ford once that needed similar treatment to get him to work!

 

[Andy m 23,473]

Running in isn't just about the engine. Its also about every other mechanical component. The only technical justification for having this on any modern engine is basically to provide a controlled period to see what falls off, if the tyres are covered in mould release agent, if the brake pads were contaminated etc. Cars you will notice have dispensed with the whole thing. Their filters may be bigger, but if engine is run then flushed at the factory I don't see why bikes can't be the same.

 

If I was Mr. Honda I'd offer "pre-run-in engines" for two hundred quid extra and make the first service 4000 miles on these. New bike buyers get to trash it on day 1. There is no queue of owners who have run out of miles outside the service department. The £200 is more profitable than selling oil changes.  More owners will still own the bike at 4000 miles, so you can sell them the same oil you would have at 600 but try for a new bike sale via the loaner while you are at it.

 

Andy

 

 

[commuter 262]

On 5/26/2017 at 15:42, Spindizzy said:

You didn't take that out did you? Its supposed to be there. Specially formulated tolerance and clearances filler with added lapping polish to take off those machining edges 

 

Highly technical stuff

snigger!

[embee 7,288]

On ‎26‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 12:29, Andy m said:

You should see what came out of the Hurley-Pugh at 600 miles

 

 

Andy

Are there any prizes for guessing what the springy thing sticking up out the top is, or who it came from (and how)? It looks short and curly to me.

 

In the engine industry there is a lot of knowledge about the break-in process, and every manufacturer I've been involved with has their own version of essentially a similar procedure and knows exactly what the effects are and what condition it provides by the end of the process.

 In my experience no-one on any internet petrol head forum has ever wanted to hear it.

[Andy m 23,473]

2 hours ago, embee said:

Are there any prizes for guessing what the springy thing sticking up out the top is, or who it came from (and how)? It looks short and curly to me.

 

 

Bit of thread IMHO possibly off the RHS of the drain plug as viewed in the photo. Every thread I've put a stainless bolt in has been tight as though the tool was worn or running at the wrong temperature . If you ran an actual metric tap down it would cut. Different standards in India? Getting the last bit of wear from tooling? Operators allowed to turn the feed up to make getting a bonus easier? The difference in ambient between Madras and Leeds? Air guns? Extra quarter turn to make sure the torque wrench really did click?

 

I figure as there are no leaks, it goes better than expected and does 86 mpg its better out than in.

 

Andy

Edited May 29, 2017 by Andy m

[Tex 36,817]

2 hours ago, embee said:

 

 In my experience no-one on any internet petrol head forum has ever wanted to

hear it.

 

I do! As we used to say 'back then' - "Lay it on me, baby"    

[larryblag 14,236]

On Friday, May 26, 2017 at 18:57, giley said:

The exemption for non dealer servicing an waranty only applies to cars, in the rulling it did not cover other types of vehicle. So diy or non desler servicing of your bikw will invalidate waranty... whatever the waranty is worth!!

I was looking at this in the Kawasaki manual. Similar wording but I doubt very much if they (motorcycle manufacturers) could discriminate against motorcycles in this way if it came to the crunch.

 

Incidentally, we have racked up nearly 800 miles and can't get the bike in for another week. I estimate about 1000 miles by then but I'm not unduly worried. It'll give the mineral oil even more chance to do it's stuff before the super, slippy (expensive) semi synthetic oil goes in. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by larryblag

[SteveThackery 3,090]

6 hours ago, embee said:

In the engine industry there is a lot of knowledge about the break-in process, and every manufacturer I've been involved with has their own version of essentially a similar procedure and knows exactly what the effects are and what condition it provides by the end of the process.

 In my experience no-one on any internet petrol head forum has ever wanted to hear it.

 

Maybe I'm not a petrol head, because I wanna hear all about it!

 

Just FWIW, my Powertrain lecturer said this: the only thing that needs running in on any modern engine is the rings.  And you run those in by several full throttle bursts of acceleration over a 5 - 10 mile run.  That's it, apart from an early oil change to clear out the swarf and stuff.

 

I'm keen to learn more about this (I regard embee as our wise guru who lives in a cave up the hill, and we bring him offerings of food in return for words of wisdom.)

[embee 7,288]

Usually forums just end up with the apparently conflicting approaches of thrash it from new, it only needs 5mins break-in, or it'll glaze the bores if you baby it.

 

There's a difference between what an engine will tolerate and what will result in the optimum condition long term. Most manufacturers have a worst case test where you build a new engine at minimum piston/bore clearance and immediately run it at max power from start up, the idea being it must not seize (at one manufacturer this was known as the "Butch" test). You do that after all other development work is completed. The engine will survive it but it doesn't give the best results.

 

As Steve says, the engine break-in is principally for the bore/rings. Everything else doesn't really require any specific procedure, although high contact loading elements such as transmission gears will benefit from a progressive break-in. Things like gears and valve train parts usually have some sort of anti-scuff surface treatment, either like phosphating which is temporary and wears off as the surfaces bed, or permanent treatments like DLC (diamond-like coating) etc.

The bore surface is designed to hold just enough oil to lubricate the rings (and piston to some extent) but not have so much volume in the honing grooves that oil consumption is excessive, with enough contact area to avoid high stresses and heat generation leading to micro-welding and tearing (scuffing). It also must keep within acceptable range of area/groove such that as it wears it doesn't lose all the oil retention capability.

The key aspect is the distribution of the honing groove spacings, width and depths.

This is about the best example I can find on Google of the sort of diagram used.

 

The honing process (stone grit/lubrication/speeds etc) is defined in order to generate a surface finish which will wear down the asperities (peaks) quickly and reach a reasonably stable "bearing area ratio" (BAR, or surface to groove ratio) while maintaining acceptable oil retention volume. The wearing of the peaks is the break-in. Due to the relatively low BAR when new and the rings just touching on the peaks, the contact pressures are high so localised heat generation can cause oil film break down and welding/tearing of the metal. Picture of typical scuffing on rings - Google

The likelihood of getting ring scuffing rises rapidly with sliding speed, much more than load, since it is down to contact pressure due to ring tension and the relatively small BAR when new causing local hotspots due to friction. This is why it is critically important to keep engine speed down for the first couple of hours. Once scuffing occurs it doesn't "heal". It will polish out under favourable conditions, but you still end up with polished lines down the bore (a scar), which is not desirable.

Piston skirts can also scuff when the bore surface is still rough, and the contact loading is much more dependent on gas loads, which is why the first step needs to keep both speeds and loads down to relatively low levels.

If you can get it through this initial critical phase, the next stage is easier, and it is really aimed at getting the surface down to the start of the "core", where the wear rate reduces dramatically and will give a maximum service life with minimum oil consumption and blowby (which itself reduces oil carry-over in the breather system and also keeps the oil cleaner longer).

Because the wear rate slows, it's desirable to progressively increase speed and load to get the bedding down into the core region. This where the "babying" issue comes in. If you don't run it fast enough and with some decent gas loads it will polish the asperities rather than wear them down, which is what you are trying to achieve, so you do need to work it harder as you go. You're going to be down to the start of the core region after a couple of hours, so the engine will be tolerant of most things after that.

 

Most manufacturers of small/medium petrol engines I've come across use a test bed break-in procedure of around 8-10hrs, and at the end it's running max power sustained for 15mins or so. It's more difficult to do on the road, and that's why a period more like 20hrs mixed road use is assumed (20hrs at 30mph average speed = 600mls).

Most procedures go a bit like saw tooth profiles of starting at low speed and gradually ramping up some load (maybe up to 1/4 load first step), then take the load off and go to a next higher speed and ramp the load up again. Then go back to a lower speed and ramp up to say 1/2 load, and so on, until you get to max speed and load.

 

The key aspect is that once you cause any sort of damage to the surface it's there for good to some extent, and while the engine will survive it'll never be optimum. What's the big deal spending a few hours/miles applying a disciplined procedure if it's going to give you the best outcome you can hope for.

[larryblag 14,236]

The (mild) vibes on the VN have come and gone, then come back again during the 800 miles it's covered so far. Not unduly worried as I feel this is the engine "bedding in" over a relatively small number of miles. What has changed quite dramatically is the transmission whine (characteristic to this model - and loads of others of course) which has reduced significantly over the last fifty miles. That would tend to imply that what Murray says about a phosphate (or similar) coating is quite correct as the gears bed in.

[SteveThackery 3,090]

6 hours ago, embee said:

 

The bore surface is designed to hold just enough oil to lubricate the rings (and piston to some extent) but not have so much volume in the honing grooves that oil consumption is excessive, with enough contact area to avoid high stresses and heat generation leading to micro-welding and tearing (scuffing). It also must keep within acceptable range of area/groove such that as it wears it doesn't lose all the oil retention capability.

The key aspect is the distribution of the honing groove spacings, width and depths..........

 

Dead interesting account.  Thanks, embee.

[Tex 36,817]

8 minutes ago, SteveThackery said:

 

Dead interesting account.  Thanks, embee.

 

Agreed. Thanks. Our team doesn't have the luxury of a private test track and new race engines are 'run in' in the shop. From first start up we run them at varying speeds for a few minutes then stop and allow them to fully cool (overnight if time permits) this is repeated three or four times before an oil change and off to the dyno. Might not be ideal, but it's the best we have. We're getting a (reliable) 165-167 bhp from old FJ1200s so it must 'work' to a degree.

[embee 7,288]

2 hours ago, Tex said:

 

...Our team doesn't have the luxury of a private test track and new race engines are 'run in' in the shop. From first start up we run them at varying speeds for a few minutes then stop and allow them to fully cool (overnight if time permits) this is repeated three or four times before an oil change and off to the dyno. ....

That is a very reasonable approach for a competition engine when, as you say, you don't have the luxury of facilities. Providing you can get through the phase of taking the highest asperities off and achieving a decent BAR without scuffing anything it'll be fine. Absolute cleanliness of the bore surface to remove any grit from the honing is crucial, avoiding any "wiping" type action which can push loose grit particles into the grooves is advisable. Washing/flushing with suitable coolant/solvent is preferable. I'd always recommend doing DIY type workshop honing using a suitable cutting fluid, not dry, semi-immersed is often easiest in a workshop environment where pumped systems aren't available to flush the debris away from the surface during the honing process.

 

Bore prep these days will include some sort of "plateau" stage where the highest peaks are taken off with maybe a very fine grit hone at the final stage. Honing processes these days are pretty sophisticated with varied grit and variable pressure heads, so the honing can be done in several steps all using the same head in one operation. This sort of controlled process is largely what has allowed minimal break-in periods being required.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mbVxiZH5bU

 

Edit - just found this one too which shows the block being honed with a "honing plate" attached. This allows the cylinder head fixing loads (and main bearings at the bottom) to be applied which will cause distortion, so the bores are machined with these in place which will produce the best geometry of the bore when assembled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWGRt9A6lkY

 

 

One other thing very often cited is the use of a mineral or "break-in" oil in the factory then change to semi-synth etc at first service. I'm not aware of any production car engine doing this, in my (limited) experience they all stipulate the service oil at first fill. Clearly I don't know what everyone does, but I really don't think that is done by any modern engine manufacturer. It may have been practised at one time.

Edited May 30, 2017 by embee

[embee 7,288]

Coincidentally I've just had an email connected with the international engine technology show coming up in Stuttgart http://www.engine-expo.com/english/ , regarding a company offering guided tours of their honing facilities. Some interesting up to date technology info at their website http://www.gehring.de/en-ww/nano-honing if you're into that sort of thing.

[larryblag 14,236]

On Saturday, May 27, 2017 at 21:20, DaveM59 said:

I can never fathom why owners of new bikes seem so reluctant to run them in properly (hard) as they never seem to keep them long enough anyway for any issues to occur.

This is true Dave. Kelly and I have had six bikes in three years trying to find the "right one". I'm not proud of this. 

What I am proud of though, is how I've well I've run them in - for the next owner to enjoy... 

[Slowboy 20,359]

On 27/05/2017 at 16:56, Tex said:

Some years back I was given the chance to tour Triumph's latest factory at Hinckley (bloody expensive day out, actually - I fell in love with a new model on the production line and it cost me over £8k to satisfy my lust!) and was seriously impressed by it all (as you would hope). 

Me too, at the original factory and the new one, and it's still proving expensive. I feel like I am currently building a new Daytona from spares.......👨🏼‍🔧🛠

[Tad 53]

All the worry about exceeding 600 miles for the first service on the NC brings me to comment on the first oil filter and oil change on my wife's Renault Captur which  is due at 18,000 miles or 2 years whichever comes sooner!  The the car is a just few months over one year old, but has only done 5500 miles, so I was looking at booking a service, First service at one year, apart from visual checks, is to change the pollen filter, nothing else. So what to do? The oil  looks quite clean BTW unlike my NC which was quite discoloured when I changed it at 600 miles.

 

 

[Guest Mac750]

Honda in Swindon do sample checks of completed engines picked at random off the assembly line. These are then sent to R&D for QA testing . They do the equivalent of 100k miles at various loadings and time duration at peak revs. They then pull the engines down to inspect all aspects of the engineering for problem areas.  Any line operative can stop the production line if they spot a problem as cars are assembled. 

I use to know a guy who worked on the line making Honda cars. 

 

One of my customers is a motor engineers ( not a garage but a machine shop ) he has been working on performance engines for 42 years and the family business has been going for 100 years. I asked which engines he rates the most for engineering quality. 

Without hesitation he said most of the Japanese manufacturers but definitely Honda.

 

[baben 11,699]

When I bought my CBF1000 I asked about the running procedure as there was nothing in the handbook. I was told they were run in before being fitted to the bike - so off you go!

My Tiger has a very clearly described running in process which I followed as best I could.  I don't know if it means anything but after 4300 miles it has not used a drop of oil. I keep checking regularly because I have been told Triumphs can drink a bit.

[embee 7,288]

Don't believe anyone who tells you that a modern mass production engine is "run in" in the factory. In my experience most have a "hot test" which is a fired test to make sure all the sensors/actuators are working and functions are correct. but it's largely a diagnostic exercise, not a break-in. I think some exotica sports car makers do run engines more extensively, but not the bread and butter products.