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Jeffprince
17 hours ago, commuter said:

Computer software to read fault codes is the prime example. However, fault code reading should never be necessary right? Why would the industry want to make it difficult for me to read a fault code? 

I seem to remember reading that fault codes are kept secret (if that's the right word), due to EU safety legislation.......to prevent us duffers from trying to fix something that only an expert should handle. That's the theory, then dealers come along and do inept things like the OP and Poppet describe.

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Exactly.   Regardless of the level, if the oil has just been changed it should look clear and bright, either golden yellow or red depending on what they use, but definitely not shi**y brown/

I'll come at this from another angle, I work in the industry just on heavy vehicles.   The aim on the OE side is to reduce costs. Software is fantastic. Instead of three valves with three se

Basically the same level of service poppet got from her dealer  when I checked it over the day after the service too much oil (not changed ) dangerously tight drive chain and over inflated tyres - apa

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fred_jb

I remember chatting to someone at a business meeting who it turned had his own light aircraft.  He told us the story of when he went for a flight after his plane had been serviced, when the engine failed, and he was lucky ( and I think skilful) to manage an emergency landing in a small field.  It turned out the sump plug had not been properly replaced and fell out shortly after take off, dumping all the engine oil.  The servicing company were landed with a very large bill!

 

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wingrider.steve
34 minutes ago, Jeffprince said:

I seem to remember reading that fault codes are kept secret (if that's the right word), due to EU safety legislation.......to prevent us duffers from trying to fix something that only an expert should handle. That's the theory, then dealers come along and do inept things like the OP and Poppet describe.

In fact the opposite is true, some years ago the EU legislated that manufacturers had to make fault codes available and readable in order that consumers are not tied into the maunfacturers franchised dealer networks.

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Jeffprince
4 minutes ago, wingrider.steve said:

In fact the opposite is true, some years ago the EU legislated that manufacturers had to make fault codes available and readable in order that consumers are not tied into the maunfacturers franchised dealer networks.

Whoops! Thought I'd read it in an MSL article about how franchised dealers are trained....the article was about mechanic of the year for one of the brands. It was the only bit that made sense about why the codes were kept from us great unwashed. 

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embee

Sounds like a claim from the straight banana brigade. If in doubt, blame the ........ (Sorry Ted, nearly politics there).

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Tex
30 minutes ago, wingrider.steve said:

In fact the opposite is true, some years ago the EU legislated that manufacturers had to make fault codes available and readable in order that consumers are not tied into the maunfacturers franchised dealer networks.

 

Exactly right. Had they not done so the motoring public would have been tied to the respective manufacturers. With all the expensive joy that entails..

 

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fred_jb
2 hours ago, wingrider.steve said:

In fact the opposite is true, some years ago the EU legislated that manufacturers had to make fault codes available and readable in order that consumers are not tied into the maunfacturers franchised dealer networks.

I think I have read that this regulation only applies to car manufacturers, who are obliged to make diagnostic equipment and codes available to allow third parties to carry out servicing, and so create at least some semblance of competition.  I don't know why, but I have feeling that motorcycles are not included in this provision.

 

Edited by fred_jb
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embee

I'm not sure Fred.

 

Bear in mind that regs have changed an awful lot over the last few years, bikes lagged many years behind cars regarding OBD (on board diagnostics)/emissions etc, I'd suspect legal requirements concerning such things for bikes have changed a lot too.

 

Remember that the whole purpose of OBD was to work towards in-use compliance with emission standards, i.e. it was an environmental issue not something to suit the manufacturers, you had to flag a fault/condition which would mean the exhaust emissions were not under control. I seem to remember the first legal requirements for OBD in cars were at the end of the 1980s, OBD2 with misfire detection etc was 1994MY if I remember right (stand to be corrected, a long time ago).

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fred_jb
3 minutes ago, embee said:

I'm not sure Fred.

 

Bear in mind that regs have changed an awful lot over the last few years, bikes lagged many years behind cars regarding OBD (on board diagnostics)/emissions etc, I'd suspect legal requirements concerning such things for bikes have changed a lot too.

 

Remember that the whole purpose of OBD was to work towards in-use compliance with emission standards, i.e. it was an environmental issue not something to suit the manufacturers, you had to flag a fault/condition which would mean the exhaust emissions were not under control. I seem to remember the first legal requirements for OBD in cars were at the end of the 1980s, OBD2 with misfire detection etc was 1994MY if I remember right (stand to be corrected, a long time ago).

Yes - I may well be recalling something which is now out of date.  I know the Euro 4 regs for bikes now require a fault light on the instrument panel, in addition to an OBD I port, but I'm not sure of the motivation for that, unless it is just to give a warning to the owner that a fault, even if transitory, has been detected, rather than the fault code simply being invisibly logged.

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Guest aldmannie

Interesting... across the pond manufacturers must provide full access to all required servicing information which is why you can usually get service manuals mail order from the US.

 

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Tonyj

What and they ain't in Europe whatever next , life goes on :0)

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Andy m

OBD in Europe is a joke. You will get away with any number of "interpretations" that effectively lock out the opposition. My main truck cable has a switch on it that connects in a different sequence for different manufacturers (they tell us, our PD guys need to know to help them). I have a software for each product. The independent stuff takes so much development to get past these blocks its much more basic. Fine if a sensor has cooked, not something you'd bet a couple of grand on to change an ECU.

 

The only thing you can't do is set the lawyers on people who reverse engineer the codes. Its not difficult just time consuming. Plug in a CANalyser, unplug something, look at the rough area in the standard and work out the "interpretation".

 

I've used basic OBD readers on BMW and Guzzi bikes. Identifying the cables and best product is not easy but once in they tell you enough.

 

Andy

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Trumpet

Honda do listen to customers. Make sure they are aware of your issues. Dealers have lost franchises after persistant poor service.

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larryblag
On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 10:07, Andy m said:

BTW I do hope you plan to wash the measuring jug before tea time :)

 

Andy

We make Birds Whisk & Serve in ours. Then it gets pride of place on the dining room table at pudding time. Our guests love the minimalist approach :rolleyes:

Edited by larryblag
Sperring
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SteveThackery

I think the important thing to understand about OBD2 is that it only concerns itself with a specific subset of potential fault codes, and they are all to do with stuff that can affect the emissions performance of the vehicle (which, to be fair, means pretty well everything to do with the engine).

 

But most manufacturers implement a large array of additional codes, related to the suspension, transmission, "infotainment" systems, and all the cabin electronics (memory seats, etc).  These are almost invariably proprietary and not covered by the OBDII specification.  These proprietary protocols have been penetrated to various extents by the manufacturers of diagnostics equipment, but coverage is patchy.

 

As embee says, the history of OBD2 is rooted in Californian emissions regulations, and then it was implemented almost unchanged in Europe.

 

New motorcycles must comply with Euro 4, which as well as covering emissions levels, also covers noise levels, braking (ABS), and how much of the OBD2 specification must be covered.  I think it also requires that ECUs are protected against remapping (again, to maintain a vehicle's emissions performance).

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larryblag

Along with exhaust and airbox mods for the cruiser, I was looking at the Vance & Hines Fuelpak at the weekend. Pricey, but a nice bit of kit which has all the proper OEM connectors to allow it to be easily and unobtrusively fitted. It connects to a smartphone or tablet via Bluetooth allowing maps and settings to be easily changed. I mention this because as Steve says ECUs are protected from remapping so this device (and many others like it) "interface" with the ecu and various sensors to "re-jig" certain parameters "on the fly" so to speak.

Edited by larryblag
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michael

As a complete aside - my apologies for vectoring off the "bad service department," conversation - is that some of us obsess over the oil level, tippling in mere drops at a time to ensure the level is "just below that mark," or "just in the middle of those marks," and here we have what appears to be a litre excess of oil.

 

Your example may support the notice the engine has a large capacity for oil volume variance!

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Dave H
On 27/05/2017 at 21:07, sullspots said:

First service at Hunts Manchester on my NC750X

 

Being new to the bike and not knowing the ins ands outs,all I knew was that the mpg dropped from low 80's to low 70's and the bike felt a bit "lethargic"

 

Checked the oil and the level came right up to the round bit of the dipstick.I undid the drain plug and drained off almost a whole litre of oil...

 

0B27A401-B134-48E8-AABD-C2645AA874F1_zps

 

What is the point of using dealers to service our bikes?The bike was a PCP purchase and I'm now beginning to doubt if Honda have the dealer network to back up their sales promises.I was considering chopping in the NC for an Africa Twin but will probs now look more towards the Teutonic offerings?? 

 

 

 

If you made a PCP purchase then, in effect, Honda Finance 'own' the bike and a letter outlining the problems with their bike may cause them to contact the dealer who will, probably, take more notice.

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Dave H
On 27/05/2017 at 21:07, sullspots said:

First service at Hunts Manchester on my NC750X

 

Being new to the bike and not knowing the ins ands outs,all I knew was that the mpg dropped from low 80's to low 70's and the bike felt a bit "lethargic"

 

Checked the oil and the level came right up to the round bit of the dipstick.I undid the drain plug and drained off almost a whole litre of oil...

 

0B27A401-B134-48E8-AABD-C2645AA874F1_zps

 

What is the point of using dealers to service our bikes?The bike was a PCP purchase and I'm now beginning to doubt if Honda have the dealer network to back up their sales promises.I was considering chopping in the NC for an Africa Twin but will probs now look more towards the Teutonic offerings?? 

 

 

 

If you made a PCP purchase then, in effect, Honda Finance 'own' the bike and a letter outlining the problems with their bike may cause them to contact the dealer who will, probably, take more notice.

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Guest Mac750

Son in law bought a Second hand car. 2015. Plate. 20,000 miles. Seat MPV.

It was offered with a "total parts and labour warranty"  coverage for an extra £400 for 3 years cover He paid the £400 on top of the cost of the car. 

Air con went pig, (recharged Free).

Air-conditioned went pig .( System examined new air con pump. Free.)

Air con went pig, ( car taken in all new pipes replaced free)

Rear parking brake inoperative ( repaired free)

NS Front calliper sticking ( replaced NS calliper and pads both sides free) 

EGR light came on  ( replace EGR valve free)  

He has owned it 3 months and it has been back about six times, each time they give him a courtesy car so it's only a minor inconvenience. But luckily he took out cover. If it's like this after 3 months what will it be like in three years. 

 

The first plug in diagnosis on a standard car was I think done by VW, I remember my 1970 Beetle 1500 not having a plug. But my father in-laws 1600 Fast Back being "plugged in" to check the Bosh fuel injection and re set both sets of injection management points. Oh what fun . 

Back then as things wore out having a service made the car feel more peppy, today the cars feel no different after a service.

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Guest aldmannie
1 hour ago, Dave H said:

 

If you made a PCP purchase then, in effect, Honda Finance 'own' the bike and a letter outlining the problems with their bike may cause them to contact the dealer who will, probably, take more notice.

 

 

Not according to a senior sales manager from Black Horse who I had a good chat with on the subject of PCP.

According to him, when you sign the contract to buy on PCP, you become the owner.

The finance company taking back the bike and giving you the "guaranteed future value" is never an absolute guarantee, there are always caveats in the contract which allow the finance company to insist you keep the bike and make the final payment.

Before signing a PCP deal, read the contract very carefully to make sure you fully understand exactly what all your contractual obligations are.

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Dave H
13 hours ago, aldmannie said:

 

 

Not according to a senior sales manager from Black Horse who I had a good chat with on the subject of PCP.

According to him, when you sign the contract to buy on PCP, you become the owner.

The finance company taking back the bike and giving you the "guaranteed future value" is never an absolute guarantee, there are always caveats in the contract which allow the finance company to insist you keep the bike and make the final payment.

Before signing a PCP deal, read the contract very carefully to make sure you fully understand exactly what all your contractual obligations are.

 

I bought my last NC on PCP. It came with the chewing gum trailmax tyres.  I wrote a letter to Honda Finance outlining the terms of the Supply of Goods (Implied Terms) Act 1973 (as amended) and the fact that I had entered into a PCP agreement with them.  A couple of days later I got a phone call from them requesting I make an appointment with the dealer to have new tyres fitted.  The dealer had previously shown absolutely zero interest in making representations to honda on my behalf.

If there was no implied responsibility to resolve the matter I would have thought they would have pointed me in the direction of Customer Services.  Neither did they write to me pointing out that they accepted no liability but were just being 'nice people' in resolving the matter.

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Andy m

A lot of car adverts on the radio seem to use the phrase ".. you will never own the vehicle..." as they zip through the T's&C's. This seems to suggest you are renting in which case the owner is usually selling you the use of a working vehicle. It isn't certain though, a lot of trailer rental is done repair&return (which drives maintenance standards down as there is a limit to what the rental company can check before handing back a deposit). As noted above read it all.

 

Andy

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Guest aldmannie
7 hours ago, Dave H said:

 

I bought my last NC on PCP. It came with the chewing gum trailmax tyres.  I wrote a letter to Honda Finance outlining the terms of the Supply of Goods (Implied Terms) Act 1973 (as amended) and the fact that I had entered into a PCP agreement with them.  A couple of days later I got a phone call from them requesting I make an appointment with the dealer to have new tyres fitted.  The dealer had previously shown absolutely zero interest in making representations to honda on my behalf.

If there was no implied responsibility to resolve the matter I would have thought they would have pointed me in the direction of Customer Services.  Neither did they write to me pointing out that they accepted no liability but were just being 'nice people' in resolving the matter.

 

Honda didn't swap your tyres because you were on PCP, they swapped them for the same reason they swapped all the other ones.

 

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Dave H
12 minutes ago, aldmannie said:

 

Honda didn't swap your tyres because you were on PCP, they swapped them for the same reason they swapped all the other ones.

 

 

My point was that  a mump to Honda finance got them changed.  Never contacted Honda customer services.

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