DDNDN Clutch initialisation.

[Johnnieboy 29]

Hi all  (esp. Mike)

I've been reading up on here about clutch initialisation...

 

Happy to share my ignorance, but why and when might I need to do this?    What is it all about?

 

Further, I can't find anything about in my owner's manual... (If it is there, please tell me the page number).

 

Thanks,

 

Johnnie

 

[Mike5100 2,061]

I used to do it whenever my bike felt Grobelaar (that will only mean something to members on here who have read the The Meaning of Liff )

If your dct bike feels rough and untidy and jumpy when tootling at low speed in traffic, it seems to help if you do the DCT initialisation.  Embee will explain what it does.

It's only REQUIRED to be done after the service people have done various bits of work to your engine, so it's only documented in the workshop manual, not the user manual

Mike

[embee 7,288]

In basic terms it's the DCT control system learning where the clutches just take up the drive. This allows the clutch slip/drive control to then work as intended. It's there principally for the initial build with new clutch packs, or if the ECU is changed and needs to learn for the first time, but I find it does help after you've done an oil change for example or near the end of the service interval where things have gradually changed. I can't see any downsides to doing it whenever you feel the clutch take up isn't quite as smooth as you'd expect.

 

First time I tried it, the progression of the clutch take up had got a bit snatchy, it would slip OK as you began to move off but then felt like it "grabbed". Doing the procedure solved this for my bike. If yours is working as intended you won't feel any difference.

 

It's similar to a manual clutch where someone comes along and adjusts the cable slack without you knowing, the first time you try to ride off you'll get the clutch take up wrong because it isn't where you "expect" it to be. Put it back to how you are used to and all will be well.

[Taipan 110]

Does the bike need to be cold to do this or at operating temp or doesn't it matter what the temp is?

[embee 7,288]

It must be fully hot, if it is not up to temp it will display a lower or upper case "L" in the gear display to advise, and it won't do the procedure.

 

If for some reason the procedure doesn't complete, just switch off and start from the beginning again.

 

Do you have the full description of the procedure, you must follow it to the letter (pun intended)?

[Tex 36,817]

Here you are..

 

I'm indebted to Alan Sykes (Sykospain) for the full wording of the procedure for the early bikes..

Document title:

"Honda Double Clutch Transmission system reboot – different to ECU reset"

document text:-

- Get aboard the bike and start the motor.

- With the transmission key in N for neutral, switch-off the ignition to stop the motor.

- With the ignition off, press AND HOLD the switch into ‘D’.

- Switch the ignition on but DON’T START THE MOTOR.

- Wait until you see in the dashboard display the yellow symbol for the motor disappearing, then let go of the D key that you've been pressing.

- Now the tricky bit: as fast as you can, press the sequence:

D D N D N.

- In the dashboard display, BOTH the letters D and S should appear.

- Turn on the motor, but don’t touch the throttle.

- After a few seconds, the letters D and S extinguish.

- Select “N” and turn off the ignition key. Done.

[embee 7,288]

Ref above - When it says "turn on the motor" that means "start the engine" by simply pressing the start button, the ignition is already on. Don't do anything else except press the start button.

 

Also NOTE that the procedure is slightly different for 2016 onwards bikes (the ones with 3 S modes).

[poldark 1,511]

Would some kindly person post on here the procedure for 2016 on bikes, as I'm keen to know and useful to have both versions in the same place for anyone searching in the future.

[Tex 36,817]

Post deleted - not helpful - sorry.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Tex

[embee 7,288]

I think it needs to be a bit more specific and unambiguous Simon. I don't have the 2016 procedure written in front of me so resisted the temptation to make any comment. I believe it does involve holding the throttle wide open at certain times, but we must be very specific about these instructions.

[Tex 36,817]

2 minutes ago, embee said:

I think it needs to be a bit more specific and unambiguous Simon. I don't have the 2016 procedure written in front of me so resisted the temptation to make any comment. I believe it does involve holding the throttle wide open at certain times, but we must be very specific about these instructions.

 

Fair comment - I have deleted it.  

[Guest sykospain]

Thanks Murray  for the clarification of my usual "start-the-motor" meaning press the starter button to fire up the engine.

And I should have mentioned in the text that I sent to Simon that the BIKE MUST BE HOT with the fan running before you even begin to embark on this DCT clutches-reset procedure for pre-2016 bikes.

[Guest Hati]

DON'T DO this procedure if your radiator fan comes on. I got stuck in the initialisation mode because of this and was unable to get the DCT back into normal until I let the engine cool for a bit (5-10 minutes), then the process completed ok. If the oil is not warm enough for the DCT's liking, it will have a small (one vertical segment) or large (two vertical segments) "L" showing on the dash and again, the process won't complete.

 

The downside to all this is that you can get into initialisation mode regardless (up to and including the DDNDN sequence), at which point it will just sit there flashing the bar that will not disappear. The oil will then heat up past the range the box likes and you will have time to have a cuppa or two while it cools down naturally. From the workshop manual:

 

Quote

The clutch initialise learning is unsuccessful, if the "-" starts blinking at interval of 0.5 second or it goes off, and the "D" and "S" indicators stay on. Perform the initialise learning procedure from step 2 again. 5. Stop the engine. 6. Restart the engine, push the D switch of the N-D shift switch and check that the "D" indicator comes on.

 

 

[Swissheavy 186]

I fully recommend doing this if you think the clutch is being snatchy. Big difference when I did it on mine. I think mine hadn't been done since new (initialised at 8k miles). 

[Mike5100 2,061]

11 hours ago, Hati said:

DON'T DO this procedure if your radiator fan comes on. I got stuck in the initialisation mode because of this and was unable to get the DCT back into normal until I let the engine cool for a bit (5-10 minutes), then the process completed ok. If the oil is not warm enough for the DCT's liking, it will have a small (one vertical segment) or large (two vertical segments) "L" showing on the dash and again, the process won't complete.

 

The downside to all this is that you can get into initialisation mode regardless (up to and including the DDNDN sequence), at which point it will just sit there flashing the bar that will not disappear. The oil will then heat up past the range the box likes and you will have time to have a cuppa or two while it cools down naturally. From the workshop manual:

 

 

 

That's interesting Hati.  I have had initialisations fail on the NC but last week when I did the Africa Twin, I let the engine run until the fan came on so I knew it was warm enough, and the procedure worked fine.

Mike

[Guest Hati]

Maybe I wasn't patient enough, I don't know. The first couple I've done were done and dusted in a few seconds. Then I had two occasions (one after a service and the other mid trip) where it would just sit there and flash the line for a couple of minutes. I then turned it off, waited a little and went for it a second time with success.

[Guest sykospain]

Hati - I've done the routine twice in the last 12 months - each time hotting up the motor with no problems at all and on each occasion I found a noticeable improvement in shifting smoothness and slipping points.

Why the setting should change over time of course I've no idea.  I always use the recommended fluids and keep the filter-change intervals as close as possible to the recommendations in the handbook.

[Guest Hati]

Yeah, the improvement after the setup is indeed noticeable.

[Hasan 4]

21 hours ago, poldark said:

Would some kindly person post on here the procedure for 2016 on bikes, as I'm keen to know and useful to have both versions in the same place for anyone searching in the future.

 

Just did my 2016 (3.7K miles) yesterday, made a huge difference in the initial take up in 1st, other gear changes also seem less 'jerky'.

 

I followed the 2016 workshop manual which is basically as above but with the throttle open. I had to get a second person to help as I couldn't hold the throttle open while doing all the other stuff at the same time! I've copied Tex's instructions and added the relevant parts:

 

Honda DCT Reset for 2016+ NC750X/S:

 

- Get aboard the bike and start the motor.

- With the transmission key in N for neutral, switch-off the ignition to stop the motor.

- With the ignition off, fully OPEN the THROTTLE and press AND HOLD the switch into ‘D’.

- Switch the ignition on but DON’T START THE MOTOR. (Whilst still holding throttle open as well as the D button)

- Wait until you see in the dashboard display the yellow symbol for the motor disappearing, then let go of the D key that you've been pressing.

- Now the tricky bit: as fast as you can, press the sequence:

D D N D N.

- In the dashboard display, BOTH the letters D and S should appear.

- CLOSE the THROTTLE

- Turn on the motor, but don’t touch the throttle.

- After a few seconds, the letters D and S extinguish.

- Select “N” and turn off the ignition key. Done.

[bat-kam 110]

Just tried the reset on my 2014 X and after starting the engin the DS is still showing and I cannot put it in the gear!!!

 

I did the rest on warm ish engine. cooling fan was not working.

 

i disconnect the battery for 15min with hope to reset but nothing has changed. 

 

What should I do now?!?!?

 

 

Edited June 30, 2017 by bat-kam

[embee 7,288]

10 minutes ago, bat-kam said:

Just tried the reset on my 2014 X and after starting the engin the DS is still showing and I cannot put it in the gear!!!

 

i disconnect the battery for 15min with hope to reset but nothing has changed. 

 

What should I do now?!?!?

For the 700, the workshop manual says if the D-S do not go out, turn off the engine and repeat the process from "step 2", i.e. the step where you hold the D button and turn on the ignition. Then go through the whole process again and it should work. I had this happen once, nothing to worry about.

Make sure the engine is up to normal working temperature first, the manual says between 50-110C so a pretty wide tolerance, just "normal".

Edited June 30, 2017 by embee

[bat-kam 110]

I did try the procedure 4 times now. And it comes up with that little L letter where the gear would be shown normally. 

I was just thinking about temperature and when the engine started it sounded like it was on automatic choke so COLD. I will warm it up and do the restet again

[embee 7,288]

Just to clarify any possible misunderstandings, this is the exact wording in the 700 DCT workshop manual section 12-120 and 121. (Note it says ensure the fan stops.)

 

CLUTCH INITIALIZE LEARNING (PCM)

• If the PCM and/or clutch assembly are replaced,

perform this procedure.

• Before starting this procedure, check the following:

– PGM-FI system and DCT system have no DTC.

– Engine idle speed is normal.

– Transmission is in neutral and cooling fan stops.

• Do not operate the throttle during clutch initialize

learning

1. Warm up the engine to the normal operating

temperature (engine oil temperature: 50 – 110°C/

122 – 230°F) and stop it.

If the PCM is replaced with a new one, the "D" and "S"

indicators [1] come on to indicate that the clutch

initialize learning is necessary when the ignition switch

is turned ON. Further the large "L" [2] (extremely low oil

temperature) or small "L" [3] (low oil temperature) is

displayed on the shift indicator to indicate that the

engine warming up is necessary if it is not warmed.

 

 

DUAL CLUTCH TRANSMISSION (DCT) (NC700XD/SD)

2. Turn the ignition switch ON with the engine stop

switch " (in the run position) " while pushing the D switch [1] of the N-D

shift switch. The MIL [2] will come on.

Release the D switch after the MIL goes off.

• When only the dual clutch assembly is replaced:

No indication appears on the shift indicator [3].

• When the PCM is replaced:

The "D" and "S" indicators [4] come on.

3. Operate the N-D shift switch [1] in the sequence as

follows:

– Push the D switch

– Push the D switch

– Push the N switch

– Push the D switch

– Push the N switch

• When only the dual clutch assembly is replaced:

The PCM is ready to clutch initialize learning when

the "D" and "S" indicators [2] lights, and the "–" [3] is

displayed on the shift indicator and blinks at interval

of 2 seconds.

• When the PCM is replaced:

The PCM is ready to clutch initialize learning when

the "–" is displayed on the shift indicator and blinks

at interval of 2 seconds.

When the engine is not warmed up enough, the large

"L" [4] (extremely low oil temperature) or small "L" [5]

(low oil temperature) is displayed on the shift indicator.

If so, warm up it until the "L" on the shift indicator goes

off. Stop the engine and perform the steps 2 and 3

again.

 

4. Start the engine and let it idle. The "–" [1] on the shift

indicator starts blinking at interval of 2 seconds. The

Clutch Initialize Learning is successful, when the "–",

"D" and "S" indicators [2] go off.

Stop the engine.

The clutch initialize learning is unsuccessful, if the "–"

starts blinking at interval of 0.5 second or it goes off,

and the "D" and "S" indicators stay on. Perform the

initialize learning procedure from step 2 again.

5. Stop the engine.

6. Restart the engine, push the D switch of the N-D

shift switch

Edited June 30, 2017 by embee

[bat-kam 110]

looks like the oil temperature is low at the mo. I will worm it up and it should do it.

[bat-kam 110]

Once oil temperature was up to what it should have been the small L letter vanished and I was able to successfully perform DCT reset.

 

Thanks Murray. I would have been stuck at work