Second clutch fails

[Guest Grahamc]

Hi

 

I had my clutch replaced in my NC750s in July 2016. 

 

Its now slipping / failing again. 

 

Is anyone else having clutch issues like this?

 

Honda is refusing to cover any of the costs which I’m not pleased about at all. 

 

They admitted it is strange but outside of the various warrenty terms. 

 

The cable has enough play at the clutch leaver. 

 

I do did ride the bike through London traffic and out along the A3 but failing after 3 years and then again after just over a year doesn’t seem right to me. 

 

Any suggestions on how to proceed with Honda or a good mechanic in the Chessington / Surbiton area?

 

Thanks

G

[Guest DervMan]

Did you see the previous clutch pates that were removed? Were they worn beyond the service limits? The only time wear occurs is when you’re using the lever, assuming it is actually worn out you’re either too heavy on the clutch or there’s a fault with the operating mechanism. One bike I had in the past I had to file the edges of the clutch basket as the ridges were causing the clutch not to engage properly which in turn causes slip. 

[Tex 36,817]

There have been a (very) few instances of clutch  failure reported, nearly all of them on bikes ridden in London traffic it seems. Generally speaking the clutch on an NC is not considered a ‘weak point’.

 

It’s notoriously difficult getting clutches repaired under warranty (on all vehicles, not just bikes) because they are so susceptible to (unintentional) driver abuse. As a point of interest a part replaced under warranty is only covered until the original warranty expires. So, a part replaced at 20 months will only be covered for the next 4 months. Harsh? Possibly, but it’s the way it’s always been in the auto industry.

 

How do you proceed from here? Well, as Steve says, wear to the clutch basket itself is the cause of a great many clutch problems, you will need to have a competent mechanic strip the clutch and report his findings. Trisaki on this forum has a workshop near Arundel if that’s not too far?

[skorpion 945]

You don't sit at road junctions/traffic lights in gear with the clutch leaver pulled in do you, this I have seen many times in the last few years, easy way  to wear out a clutch.

[embee 7,288]

What oil do you use?

[TJW 44]

10 hours ago, skorpion said:

You don't sit at road junctions/traffic lights in gear with the clutch leaver pulled in do you, this I have seen many times in the last few years, easy way  to wear out a clutch.

Funny you say this, as I've been doing exactly this for the past 5 years.

 

My NC700X has done 23K miles in 5 years with 99% done in London traffic, sometimes wonder why the clutch hasn't given in yet, but still no problem. A clutch failing twice in such a short period of time sounds really strange ...

[deecat 318]

When I had my clutch done on one of my previous nc750X they did not replace the whole unit and it failed again after about 1500miles

 

Once they replaced the whole assembly it was fine and I had forgot about it until I saw a 2016 bike in my local dealers having its clutch replaced .

 

I always put my bike in neutral when I can in traffic as I find from the clutch lever being fully pulled to slightly letting go, soon starts to engage the clutch no matter how I adjust it

[Bigglesaircraft 293]

18 hours ago, skorpion said:

You don't sit at road junctions/traffic lights in gear with the clutch leaver pulled in do you, this I have seen many times in the last few years, easy way  to wear out a clutch.

Not sure how holding the clutch in will wear the clutch as the plates will not be in contact, I would have thought only the actuating mechanisms would be under stress at that time. 

[skorpion 945]

1 hour ago, Bigglesaircraft said:

Not sure how holding the clutch in will wear the clutch as the plates will not be in contact, I would have thought only the actuating mechanisms would be under stress at that time. 

In simple terms,

When you pull in the clutch leaver you disengage the clutch plate's causing them to slip, so causing wear through friction between bonded clutch plates and the plain steel plates.

 

Only when the clutch leaver is released and the clutch has locked up should there be no wear.

[Bigglesaircraft 293]

3 hours ago, skorpion said:

In simple terms,

When you pull in the clutch leaver you disengage the clutch plate's causing them to slip, so causing wear through friction between bonded clutch plates and the plain steel plates.

 

Only when the clutch leaver is released and the clutch has locked up should there be no wear.

I appreciate that wear takes place during the process of dis-engaging and engaging the clutch plates but surely no wear takes places if the clutch lever is held in during being stationary, like waiting at lights. If the wear takes place as you describe the same amount would happen whether in gear or not.

 

[Tex 36,817]

Have to say I agree with David on this one. ‘Back in the day’ we were taught to select neutral at a standstill (a habit I couldn’t break, even on a DCT) because the clutch pushrod would overheat and wear. Once the hardening wore off the ends you were adjusting the clutch every five minutes. 

[Trumpet 215]

Yea, but the plates do not wear when you are holding the clutch in, just the thrust bearing and push/pull (Depending on model) rod. I'd get it checked out by a good experienced Honda Mechanic. The wrong (car type) oil has been known to cause slippage on other models

Edited October 24, 2017 by Trumpet

[Tex 36,817]

Excellent point Alan. The importance of using the correct JASO (MA2) spec oil can’t be overstated.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Tex

[skorpion 945]

18 hours ago, Bigglesaircraft said:

I appreciate that wear takes place during the process of dis-engaging and engaging the clutch plates but surely no wear takes places if the clutch lever is held in during being stationary, like waiting at lights. If the wear takes place as you describe the same amount would happen whether in gear or not.

 

 

My understanding.

The clutch is between the engine and the gearbox/final drive, if you are stationary and in gear with the clutch lever pulled in, you will have clutch friction plate wear as the plates rub against each other disconnecting drive.

 

If the clutch is pulled in when not in gear the two half's of the clutch are free to turn together as now there is no transmission drag to overcome, so very little or no wear of the plates.

[Trumpet 215]

The clutch plates are kept wet with an oil feed. When you pull in the clutch at a standstill, Bike on centrestand, (Bike hot) and put it in gear, the rear wheel should not turn, or turn very slowly.  There is no pressure on the plates at all, just a film of oil. You wound not wear a clutch out by holding the lever fully in,  in gear at a standstill. Its considered bad practice because you are holding one part of the clutch at a stanstill, with the other part is wizzing around against a thrust bearing taking the load off the springs trying to hold the clutch together. If for some reason or other, the clutch is dragging, not disengaging properly, then yes you could wear the friction plates out. You can also burn out clutch friction plates or distort the metal plates by over energetic take offs and doing silly things like trying to tow a car.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Trumpet

[commuter 262]

2 clutches in 3 years seems to be excessive. However, during those 3 years how many miles were covered? If only a couple of tens of thousands were covered in the 3 years, then my solution based on the service support and general interest shown by your preferred Honda dealer is either find another Honda specialist or don't buy another Honda. Given that this phenomenon is not widespread throughout the NC range, it does seem to indicate that the cause is to do with that particular machine and as such your preferred specialist  missed the cause the first time round. Some dealers seem to prefer permanent loss of customers to temporary loss of face/ profit, I can't think why.  I am of course assuming that you haven't worn out the clutch on every single bike you have owned to date, in which case the fault lies quite literally within your grasp.

[Guest DelBoy]

MIne was replaced under warranty early in it's life (after the first oil service).

The mechanic at the dealership noticed that it was not quite right and they got a whole new clutch under warranty for me.

 

I have just noticed that it has started slipping slightly (after 23.5k)

If I am in 5th doing circa 50mph and open the throttle hard it slips, I have not noticed it slipping at other times and although I do a lot of town work (25% of my mileage) I do generally put it in neutral when waiting at lights, although I do not see that not doing this would be a real problem.

I have not noticed any slippage at other times though, although experience tells me that it will get worse.

 

The bike is due for a service etc so maybe when I do that soon I will have a look at the clutch.

I would not have thought though that as the oil is due changing that it would cause the clutch to slip.

I suspect though that it is more likely to be the springs rather that the plates as I have had the same thing with a couple of other bikes where the springs have got "tired".

 

May be worth calling them for advisement etc.

[skorpion 945]

On 25/10/2017 at 18:53, Trumpet said:

The clutch plates are kept wet with an oil feed. When you pull in the clutch at a standstill, Bike on centrestand, (Bike hot) and put it in gear, the rear wheel should not turn, or turn very slowly.  There is no pressure on the plates at all, just a film of oil. You wound not wear a clutch out by holding the lever fully in,  in gear at a standstill. Its considered bad practice because you are holding one part of the clutch at a stanstill, with the other part is wizzing around against a thrust bearing taking the load off the springs trying to hold the clutch together. If for some reason or other, the clutch is dragging, not disengaging properly, then yes you could wear the friction plates out. You can also burn out clutch friction plates or distort the metal plates by over energetic take offs and doing silly things like trying to tow a car.

 

Yes you are right it's the clutch bearing that wears holding the clutch lever in at a standstill not the plates.

The little grey cell's are fading fast now at my age. 

[Guest Grahamc]

Thanks all for your responses. 

I have now had the clutch replaced - frictions, metals and I believe springs but not the basket. Apparently it was fine. 

 

Was done at Tippets in Surbiton this time. 

 

I’ll take more note of how I use the clutch over the next weeks. I do ride the clutch quite a bit through London traffic but I didn’t think enough for this to happen. 

 

Lets see how the next year goes although I suspect I may have a different bike by then :-)

[MikeBike 5,005]

Hearing how they fail I'm just glad I've got two.

:-)

[Guest DelBoy]

6 hours ago, Grahamc said:

 have now had the clutch replaced - frictions, metals and I believe springs but not the basket. Apparently it was fine. 

 

 Makes sense to do the Springs as well, as they are so cheap.

 

Did they indicate what the problem was, Worn plates etc ?

 

Also what was the bill for the work  ?

I think I will be needing similar doing (Due a service anyway)

[Trumpet 215]

I wonder if its anything to do with the start assist ?

[Guest DelBoy]

6 minutes ago, Trumpet said:

I wonder if its anything to do with the start assist ?

Whats that ?

[Trumpet 215]

I'm sure Honda have built something into the ECU that prevents stalling from novice users. The Bike takes off eagerly and quickly when feathering the clutch in 1st. Very difficult to stall. It takes only a whiff of throttle to make a strong getaway.  Lots of strong getaways in the rush hour equals clutch wear long term. Others have noted that the revs rise a few 100 rpm if you just let the clutch out without touching the throttle. Its subtle but there on serval recent Honda models.

Others have noticed it too. I actually like it. Makes the Bike feel more grunty than it really is..

 

MCN quote on the VFR800 .." One little detail I have noticed, but not found anything written about, is the anti-stall feature. I discovered this when I was sat at a red light for a ridiculously long time, and as I released the clutch towards its biting point I noticed that the revs crept up as I let it out — a nice touch."

Edited November 9, 2017 by Trumpet

[Trumpet 215]

Just now, Trumpet said:

My conclusion so far from all the information posted is that the Clutch on the NC750 is only just up to the job and can't take any sort of punishment or hard use long term. Doesn't put me off. Easy enough long term to get fixed. Nothing is perfect.

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by Trumpet