Second clutch fails

[Slowboy 20,361]

The trouble with clutches, like brakes is they are heavily influenced by ones riding style and the riding "environment". Never replaced a clutch on any of my bikes, even on my 60k mile Ducati, but then I didn't have to face London traffic either. My NC700X was fine after 28k miles, which included commuting as well as fun riding.

[Guest DelBoy]

2 hours ago, slowboy said:

The trouble with clutches, like brakes is they are heavily influenced by ones riding style and the riding "environment". Never replaced a clutch on any of my bikes, even on my 60k mile Ducati, but then I didn't have to face London traffic either. My NC700X was fine after 28k miles, which included commuting as well as fun riding.

It's a first for me... My previous commuter (Yam 600 Fazer) had over 100k on the original clutch (Gearbox eventually failed) and I reckon that was used harder than the NC clutch..!

I am genuinely shocked that it is slipping after only 16k, especially as 12k of that is motorway cruising.

[Guest DelBoy]

12 hours ago, Trumpet said:

I'm sure Honda have built something into the ECU that prevents stalling from novice users. The Bike takes off eagerly and quickly when feathering the clutch in 1st. Very difficult to stall. It takes only a whiff of throttle to make a strong getaway.  Lots of strong getaways in the rush hour equals clutch wear long term. Others have noted that the revs rise a few 100 rpm if you just let the clutch out without touching the throttle. Its subtle but there on serval recent Honda models.

Others have noticed it too. I actually like it. Makes the Bike feel more grunty than it really is..

 

MCN quote on the VFR800 .." One little detail I have noticed, but not found anything written about, is the anti-stall feature. I discovered this when I was sat at a red light for a ridiculously long time, and as I released the clutch towards its biting point I noticed that the revs crept up as I let it out — a nice touch."

Hi Trumpet,

I doubt if it is that tbh.

 

It does not slip when pulling away, but about 3k revs if you "whack" the throttle open and only does this after it is well up to temperature.

Also it seems t be getting worse, so wont use it anymore after today until it goes into the workshop on 25th.

Does not do it when engine is "cold".

 

I am wondering if the correct oil was put in at the 24k service,

Maybe if they used fully syntheticwhich could be the problem, I wouldn't be surprised, as they failed to adjust/lube the chain correctly.

Wont be going back to Maidstone for services anymore .

I recently spoke to Kent Motorcycles and they suggested that it could be an oil related problem.

It is now booked into the shop (21st Moto) that supplied the bike , they had noticed a problem with the original clutch at the 8k service and had it replaced under warranty.

So there is definitely something going on with this clutch.

Fingers crossed that it is only a minor problem .

 

I was considering buying a new one next year, but not so sure now

 

 

 

[trisaki 2,029]

I wonder if they used a 10w 50 full synthetic   - or even a 10w60 Hondas don't recommend full synthetic  of any grade / the 50 part of the oil grading  is when it's hot  so it's quite feasible that they have used the wrong  grade try draining  and refilling  with a 10w 40 semi synthetic   might be the cheapest answer 

Edited November 10, 2017 by trisaki

[Guest DelBoy]

28 minutes ago, trisaki said:

I wonder if they used a 10w 50 full synthetic   - or even a 10w60 Hondas don't recommend full synthetic  of any grade / the 50 part of the oil grading  is when it's hot  so it's quite feasible that they have used the wrong  grade try draining  and refilling  with a 10w 40 semi synthetic   might be the cheapest answer 

I need to find the invoice for the service, which would show this I think. 

Annoyingly it must have been misfiled, will try and find it this W/E.

 

I am hoping that it is something that simple.

 

It is actually going in for a 24k service in a couple of weeks at the good place and they will be using the correct (Castrol) oil.

I have been very impressed with 21st Moto's service dept 

I only took it else where as I good a good deal on a pair of tyres.

 

Lesson learned. In future I will only take it to 21st Moto or Kent motorcycles.

 

P.S. Apologies to Graham I seem to have hijacked this thread.

Edited November 10, 2017 by DelBoy

[trisaki 2,029]

Any problems you could always pop it into my wshop in West Sussex   if I can help check things out 

[Guest DelBoy]

2 hours ago, trisaki said:

Any problems you could always pop it into my wshop in West Sussex   if I can help check things out 

That's a most kind offer Mark

 

However I have committed to the service and clutch inspection May do a test on a DCT and see what all the fuss is about at while I am waiting..

A bit of a pain really as I intended to do the service myself, but as they (21st Moto) know about the previous clutch Issues I will go ahead with that.

Also I trust them as they have, so far, been very good.

 

BTW. I found the invoice for the last service and the oil used was Motul 5100 10W /30. So it's not that.

 

Also found the paperwork for the new clutch fitted under warranty , looks like they pretty much replaced everything bar the basket. 

£300 including labour & vat (that included another oil change). ouch....Bugger that EBC time if that is the case, I an hoping though that Honda may be kind to me 

Edited November 10, 2017 by DelBoy
Bad spilling

[embee 7,288]

Quite a lot of the parts (friction plates etc) are common with the Deauville, amongst others (click on a part number here to see where it is used https://www.bike-parts-honda.com/pieces-honda-detail-71461-71461-NC750SAE-2015-E_07-NC+750+S+ABS.html ).

One thing found on some Deauvilles was that the stack height of all the plates would just about allow the centre to bottom out when the clutch was engaged and with only a fraction of wear it would then start slipping. I helped a friend change all the plates in his Deau and we measured the new/old stack of plates and the wear was absolutely minimal but it was slipping quite badly.

There were 2 solutions adopted to get round this by different folk, one was to machine a mm or so off the centre boss to avoid the bottoming out, the other easier trick was simply to add an extra plain plate. It wasn't to increase the spring preload (although it did do this fractionally), it just avoided the bottoming out. I can't recall the exact detail of what needs machining, we didn't consider this at the time, but I'm sure it would be fairly obvious with the parts in your hand.

[Mikdent 4,070]

On 24/10/2017 at 22:33, Tex said:

 ‘Back in the day’ 

 

STOP THAT!         STOP THAT RIGHT NOW!  

 

A man of your age, experience and standing should NOT be using these new 'Americanisms' for fear of losing all credibility amongst your peers. 

 

As a penance you must now go and ride the Bonny for 100 miles in city traffic without selecting neutral.  

Edited November 11, 2017 by Mikdent

[Tex 36,817]

1 hour ago, Mikdent said:

 

STOP THAT!         STOP THAT RIGHT NOW!  

 

A man of your age, experience and standing should NOT be using these new 'Americanisms' for fear of losing all credibility amongst your peers. 

 

As a penance you must now go and ride the Bonny for 100 miles in city traffic without selecting neutral.  

 

I’m sorry, I never even realised it was an Americanism.. I shall take your advice to heart and be more careful in future.  

 

Murray (again) makes a good point about clutch pack thickness. This is absolutely crucial on slipper clutches and I have spent hours shuffling new clutch plates like a pack of cards to get the ‘ideal’. 

 

I’m thinking (now) that the bikes that have clutch troubles have repeated clutch troubles because they’re out of spec. I would definitely ask your dealer to fit an extra steel plate (use the best of the old ones) and I bet the problem goes away. 

 

If that’s really the problem, I also owe an apology to the owners.

 

[Guest Grahamc]

On 11/6/2017 at 20:02, DelBoy said:

MIne was replaced under warranty early in it's life (after the first oil service).

The mechanic at the dealership noticed that it was not quite right and they got a whole new clutch under warranty for me.

 

I have just noticed that it has started slipping slightly (after 23.5k)

If I am in 5th doing circa 50mph and open the throttle hard it slips, I have not noticed it slipping at other times and although I do a lot of town work (25% of my mileage) I do generally put it in neutral when waiting at lights, although I do not see that not doing this would be a real problem.

I have not noticed any slippage at other times though, although experience tells me that it will get worse.

 

The bike is due for a service etc so maybe when I do that soon I will have a look at the clutch.

I would not have thought though that as the oil is due changing that it would cause the clutch to slip.

I suspect though that it is more likely to be the springs rather that the plates as I have had the same thing with a couple of other bikes where the springs have got "tired".

 

May be worth calling them for advisement etc.

 

 

This is exactly the symptoms I was having, in 5th or 6th on A3 so around 50mph and opening up throttled it slipped.

 

The frictions where not too bad, middle ones worn somewhat though.

 

Id like to get upgrade frictions and springs if anyone knows where so get from?

 

[Guest DelBoy]

4 minutes ago, Grahamc said:

 

 

This is exactly the symptoms I was having, in 5th or 6th on A3 so around 50mph and opening up throttled it slipped.

 

The frictions where not too bad, middle ones worn somewhat though.

 

Id like to get upgrade frictions and springs if anyone knows where so get from?

 

Seems to be about revs 3,000 rpm )just as the max torque comes in, does it in 3rd too.

 

 EBC do springs (Plates too) and they are about 10% stiffer so the clutch would feel a bit heavier.

There are other alternatives too try a google search.

[Guest Grahamc]

On 11/7/2017 at 19:40, DelBoy said:

 

Also what was the bill for the work  ?

 

 

 

was a little under £300 in all.

 

NOt sure on your DIY ability but been doing a but of youtubing etc and changing a clutch looks far less daunting that I had originally though.

 

If mine goes again - which ill be surprised if it doesn't - I will do it myself.

 

Or maybe sooner if I can find some "upgraded" parts!

 

Graham

[Guest Grahamc]

2 minutes ago, DelBoy said:

 EBC do springs (Plates too) and they are about 10% stiffer so the clutch would feel a bit heavier.

There are other alternatives too try a google search.

 

 

I have been googling, found ECB and TRW among others that do springs etc but not specific parts for my bike. Have yet to try calling some of the re-sellers if I can find a local one.

 

[larryblag 14,236]

Aloominum, Nucular... just teasing. 

 

In all my years I've never had a clutch wear out or slip on any bike I've had that hasn't been down to poor or incorrect adjustment (with the exception of the RT but that's another story and a single plate dry clutch).

The CB100N I had in 1982 though had a curious design fault in that if you introduced too much free play, the socket end of the pushrod actuator would ride over the pushrod and begin to act on it again and reverse the adjustment again. Baffled me for a while. 

[Guest DelBoy]

On 11/18/2017 at 20:56, larryblag said:

Aloominum, Nucular... just teasing. 

 

In all my years I've never had a clutch wear out or slip on any bike I've had that hasn't been down to poor or incorrect adjustment (with the exception of the RT but that's another story and a single plate dry clutch).

The CB100N I had in 1982 though had a curious design fault in that if you introduced too much free play, the socket end of the pushrod actuator would ride over the pushrod and begin to act on it again and reverse the adjustment again. Baffled me for a while. 

The NC does not have that sort of adjustment unfortunately.

 

It was in for a service yesterday and it was suggested that I may need new friction plates (won't know for sure until they get the clutch out).

If that is the case it would cost just over £120 + Gasket to do the work, May as well replace springs too as they are not that expensive.

So probably looking at circa £150. And probably another £30 ish as I Guess they would change the oil again

Alternatively do it myself and go down the EBC route. Save on oil too as I would work on the clutch with the bike on the sidestand.

All depend how my conversation goes tomorrow with Honda Customer services.

 

[trisaki 2,029]

In all the bikes that I have checked over that have had Honda dealer servicing the oil level is always too  high  / why I don't know as it is such a simple thing to get right -   maybe that is the reason why some bikes have slipping clutches or dealers are putting  in wrong grades and types of oil 

[embee 7,288]

1 hour ago, DelBoy said:

... just over £120 + Gasket to do the work, .......
Alternatively do it myself and go down the EBC route.

There's no gasket, it's a sealant used on the clutch cover joint.

I've heard a couple of scary stories with EBC clutch plates falling apart and blocking oilways, but that may have been very isolated instances and there may have been other issues.

[Guest DelBoy]

4 hours ago, embee said:

There's no gasket, it's a sealant used on the clutch cover joint.

I've heard a couple of scary stories with EBC clutch plates falling apart and blocking oilways, but that may have been very isolated instances and there may have been other issues.

Interesting. 

 

I will wait and see what Honda UK say before making any decision.

I am thinking that just fitting EBC springs may solve the problem, but may make the clutch heavier.

 

No Gasket is a result. No wonder I couldn't find one in the parts list. 

Just checked, the Sealant (Genuine Honda is £18)

 

Looking at the parts picture of the clutch it Looks  like I would need a Clutch holder tool to remove the Plates as I would have to get the Lock nut off (19) ?

But should be able to get to the Springs ok.

Edited November 26, 2017 by DelBoy

[Guest DelBoy]

5 hours ago, trisaki said:

In all the bikes that I have checked over that have had Honda dealer servicing the oil level is always too  high  / why I don't know as it is such a simple thing to get right -   maybe that is the reason why some bikes have slipping clutches or dealers are putting  in wrong grades and types of oil 

Interestingly looking at the William (Too large to be a Bill !) they used Silkolene 10W/40 this time, whereas previously thay had used Castrol GPS 10W/30 

 

Will call the tomorrow regarding this.

 

Seems odd as In the parts/service reception there is only Castrol on show.

[trisaki 2,029]

Perhaps they have recently changed makes triumph do it all the time 

[embee 7,288]

Since the assembly is so similar to the Deauville, it's almost certain that a couple of aspects are common. First, about the only way most people find it possible to get that nut off is with an impact wrench, either pneumatic or electric. My friend bought a Machine Mart electric item specifically to do it. You may well find a youtube vid covering this for the Deau if not the NC. With a decent impact wrench there is enough inertia in the clutch that it doesn't need holding, it will simply loosen off. Of course don't use it for tightening back up again! https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clarke-cew1000-electric-impact-wrench/

As said before, if you're going to tackle it yourself I'd suggest simply fitting an extra plain plate as a first step. If it really is the same as on the Deau and the centre boss is bottoming out it'll probably still do it if you change springs or even if you change all the plates it's still possible. You could always fit new springs at the same time, as you say the cost is not great, less than £4 each from Honda

One of the best sealants available easily is Loctite 5980, and the easiest place to get it and at a very competitive price is http://www.halfords.com/workshop-tools/garage-equipment/head-gasket-exhaust-repairs/loctite-si-5980-flange-sealant , it's what I used on my clutch cover and no leaks.

Edited November 27, 2017 by embee

[Tex 36,817]

Totally agree with fitting an extra steel plate. Put it half way (roughly) in the stack. You’re going to have steel on steel but it makes no difference (grip wise). Instead of fibre/steel/fibre you get fibre/steel/steel/ fibre. In effect the double steel simply becomes one thick steel. With that arrangement I would go with (new) Honda springs.

[dave 959]

Check the cable routing, Maidstone Honda mis-routed my clutch cable when putting in new head bearings (under warranty), the clutch started not releasing properly  because of the cable's tight bend under the head stock. After about 5000 miles the cable broke.  This was on a Deauville, so check the cable routing is not causing a problem. I put on a new cable and routed it as per the workshop manual diagram and hope that no damage by the previous work done. (in all fairness it could have been wrong from the factory build). 

[Guest DelBoy]

On 11/27/2017 at 08:44, dave said:

Check the cable routing, Maidstone Honda mis-routed my clutch cable when putting in new head bearings (under warranty), the clutch started not releasing properly  because of the cable's tight bend under the head stock. After about 5000 miles the cable broke.  This was on a Deauville, so check the cable routing is not causing a problem. I put on a new cable and routed it as per the workshop manual diagram and hope that no damage by the previous work done. (in all fairness it could have been wrong from the factory build). 

Checked the clutch cable, new one was actually fitted by myself. One of the first things I checked, all ok.

 

It's going into the shop fro a clutch strip and check next weekend. I have managed to get Honda Customer services, so far they have been making all the right noises.

Shop will strip the clutch and report to Honda, so will have to wait and see.

 

Fingers crossed