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Mister Paul

Engineer/mechanic advice requested please

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Mister Paul

Would you accept a warranty repair to an engine on a bike bought from new, just under 6 months old and having done 1800 miles, after being told that the oil and fluid leak you'd spotted was a result of the engine not having a head gasket fitted when it was built in the factory?

 

Is there enough risk of long-term damage being done to insist on an alternative response?

Edited by Mister Paul
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pilninggas
3 minutes ago, Mister Paul said:

Would you accept a warranty repair to an engine on a bike bought from new, just under 6 months old and having done 1800 miles, after being told that the oil and fluid leak you'd spotted was a result of the engine not having a head gasket fitted when it was built in the factory?

 

Is there enough risk of long-term damage being done to insist on an alternative response?

 

As someone with a degree in Mechanical Engineering I am astonished it ran with 'no head gasket'. Are you sure it wasn't in there and maybe mis-formed or incorrectly installed. Modern cylinder heads and barrels are flat to very tight tolerances (less than 10micron), but even then getting a seal with out a gasket seems pretty surprising. Do you have this on an engineers report?

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Mister Paul
10 minutes ago, pilninggas said:

 

As someone with a degree in Mechanical Engineering I am astonished it ran with 'no head gasket'. Are you sure it wasn't in there and maybe mis-formed or incorrectly installed. Modern cylinder heads and barrels are flat to very tight tolerances (less than 10micron), but even then getting a seal with out a gasket seems pretty surprising. Do you have this on an engineers report?

 

Yeah, the dealer mechanic spotted it missing before he removed the head, then confirmed when it was off. Honda UK have photos and have accepted that it was missing.

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Tex
1 minute ago, Mister Paul said:

 

Yeah, the dealer mechanic spotted it missing before he removed the head, then confirmed when it was off. Honda UK have photos and have accepted that it was missing.

 

Bloody Norah!  That’s a new one on me with Honda (although there was the infamous Moto-Guzzi with no piston rings..).

 

Personally, I would accept the repair. I would ask Honda UK to extend the warranty for an extra year as a ‘security measure’, though. There will be plenty who tell you to demand a new bike etc (yawn) but why? It ran fine without a gasket and will be even better with one. Winner. :) 

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machinman

I dont believe their was no head gasket, its got to be stuck to the head or the block.

Youd have compression leaks everywhere, coolant and oil mixing.

Is it April 1st?

 

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Rocker66
9 minutes ago, Tex said:

 

Bloody Norah!  That’s a new one on me with Honda (although there was the infamous Moto-Guzzi with no piston rings..).

 

Personally, I would accept the repair. I would ask Honda UK to extend the warranty for an extra year as a ‘security measure’, though. There will be plenty who tell you to demand a new bike etc (yawn) but why? It ran fine without a gasket and will be even better with one. Winner. :) 

That seems like a good compromise.

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pilninggas
7 minutes ago, Tex said:

 

Bloody Norah!  That’s a new one on me with Honda (although there was the infamous Moto-Guzzi with no piston rings..).

 

Personally, I would accept the repair. I would ask Honda UK to extend the warranty for an extra year as a ‘security measure’, though. There will be plenty who tell you to demand a new bike etc (yawn) but why? It ran fine without a gasket and will be even better with one. Winner. :) 

I'd agree - amazing to think the thing is that well lapped that it sealed for 1800miles.

 

I'd just make sure valves, pistons and the valve train are not damaged. Get this in writing.

 

In general the rejection process for vehicles is not always simple anyway. Importers only accept rejection when they see the repair and the possible legal bill will be more than the profit they made originally.

 

goes outside to see if my bike has a head gasket.....

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gonzo

Difficult to believe its a Honda, As said before what about fluid mixes ,

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Mister Paul
17 minutes ago, gonzo said:

Difficult to believe its a Honda, As said before what about fluid mixes ,

That's why it went into the shop in the first place. Oil dripping off the engine and creamy residue around the top. 

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gonzo

What !! im going in my garage with a torch to see if mine has a head gasket  !!:console:

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Mister Paul

Right. I explained to Honda that I expected not to have lost out in the long-term due to this error. Honda UK have  come back, admitted fault and apologised. They've said that their technicians have looked at the photos of the engine with the head off and can see no damage. They refer to "only a slight oil weep". So they're saying that they're confident that there's no long-term damage to the engine. But as the good old goodwill gesture they've offered to add 12 months' warranty.

 

Before I accept, I'd appreciate some opinions on a couple of things:

 

  1. Without knowing the intricacies of the SH engine I don't know whether there is a possibility that water has got into the oil. They've changed the oil now, but is there a chance that water could have got into the oil system and caused lubrication-related damage?
  2. An extension to the warranty is a fair offer, but it's limiting me to mechanics who Honda are happy with. My local bike mechanic is a fantastic bloke but he's not vat-registered. So does this mean that I'm going to have to pay more for any work done during the extended warranty period, and do you think this acceptable?

Thanks for your input.

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Rocker66

Personally I think that's a fair offer from Honda UK. In all fairness I think that it would be a much to expect them to add extra warranty to work done by someone they dont know however good he may be

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DMB

I wouldn't accept it.  You just don't know what you are in for.  Who knows, the engine that might easily have done 100,000 miles might, now, only do 90,000 miles or, perhaps, 50,000 miles.  Who can say?  Why on earth should you be expected to run the risk?  Honda sell ten of thousands of NCs.  Honda fu**ed up.  Take it like a man, for God's sake.

Edited by DMB

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Mikdent

Sorry Tex and Rocker but I'd be camping on their doorstep with placards until I got a brand new bike. 

 

 

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Rocker66
27 minutes ago, Mikdent said:

Sorry Tex and Rocker but I'd be camping on their doorstep with placards until I got a brand new bike. 

 

 

You’re in the building trade so would you expect an ex workmate of mine who bought a new build which had a major defect in the heating system to be given a brand new house?

Should the current problem which has been sorted cause any future ones it should occur during the extended warranty period. 

If your going to say a new bike because it’s not fit for purpose then those that had their tyres changed FOC should have a been given a brand new bike.

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gonzo

I would be asking for a new engine,.!

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Mikdent
53 minutes ago, Rocker66 said:

You’re in the building trade so would you expect an ex workmate of mine who bought a new build which had a major defect in the heating system to be given a brand new house?

Why not? My argument would be "How do I know that nothing else has been bodged?" Same argument for the bike.

53 minutes ago, Rocker66 said:

Should the current problem which has been sorted cause any future ones it should occur during the extended warranty period. 

 

And what if they don't? 

53 minutes ago, Rocker66 said:

If your going to say a new bike because it’s not fit for purpose then those that had their tyres changed FOC should have a been given a brand new bike.

Tyres are a consumable item, engines aren't. 

 

Why should the little man on the street be shafted by a big multinational firm like Honda? They should just roll over and supply a new bike, they've nothing to lose except a few quid but will gain good PR. 

 

Not holding their hands up and saying "Hey, one slipped through the net, have a replacement" will only bring them bad PR. 

 

If it were me in that position I'm afraid that the bike would feel forever tarnished. 

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outrunner

I think I would be looking for a new engine at the least as then you know it would be right in the long term. Stating they will give a years extra warranty does not help when/if the repaired motor fails while on holiday or when you need it for work.

 

 

Andy.

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Rocker66
22 minutes ago, Mikdent said:

Why not? My argument would be "How do I know that nothing else has been bodged?" Same argument for the bike.

And what if they don't? 

Tyres are a consumable item, engines aren't. 

 

Why should the little man on the street be shafted by a big multinational firm like Honda? They should just roll over and supply a new bike, they've nothing to lose except a few quid but will gain good PR. 

 

Not holding their hands up and saying "Hey, one slipped through the net, have a replacement" will only bring them bad PR. 

 

If it were me in that position I'm afraid that the bike would feel forever tarnished. 

As to the tyres yes they are consumables but as they were apparently brand new when supplied as part of the bike by your argument the whole bike should have been replaced. The guy now has a perfectly good bike with extended warranty w which seems fair enough but then I don’t come from the what’re goes wrong somebody has to pay for it and give me as much as possible generation. Fair composition and recenable action to sort the problem are all that’s required. Once when we had to cancel the last train to Ashford from Tonbridge due to a lorry hitting a bridge we supplied taxis to all the stations down the line FOC. One guy however also wanted the taxi to take him to his house some 20 miles beyond Ashford at our expense despite the fact that his ticket only took him to Ashford and he would have had to pay for a taxi from there to his house had the train run as normal. 

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DMB
1 hour ago, Rocker66 said:

You’re in the building trade so would you expect an ex workmate of mine who bought a new build which had a major defect in the heating system to be given a brand new house?

Should the current problem which has been sorted cause any future ones it should occur during the extended warranty period. 

If your going to say a new bike because it’s not fit for purpose then those that had their tyres changed FOC should have a been given a brand new bike.

If the engine only does, say 80,000 miles instead of, say, 100,000 on account of the absent gasket, and the owner only does 12,000 miles a year, two or three years on top of the warranty is not going to help.  If Honda won't give the person a brand new engine they should take their custom elsewhere, for ever.  And they should tell all their friends about it.  No two ways about it.

Edited by DMB
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Jeffprince

I would have thought that a head gasket was fundamental to the engine's functionality, and would be manning the picket lines with Mikdent. We buy bikes with a certain amount of faith that the manufacturer designed and built them correctly. In this case, they failed on a key component. Who knows what damage has been or could have been caused, short or long term. 

 

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Rocker66
41 minutes ago, Jeffprince said:

I would have thought that a head gasket was fundamental to the engine's functionality, and would be manning the picket lines with Mikdent. We buy bikes with a certain amount of faith that the manufacturer designed and built them correctly. In this case, they failed on a key component. Who knows what damage has been or could have been caused, short or long term. 

 

I thought that the engine had checked and no damage found. Of course had there been any damage a new engine ( certainly not a new bike) would have been the answer. In my experiance Honda are usually very good when it comes to warranty claims after all they fitted new engines to many VFR1200s. Sue had a new frame fitted to her Hornet FOC despite the fact that it was out of warranty by a long way. 

If I thought that their warranty service was bad I would certainly have done what I have with Yamaha which is to not buy any more new ones.

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Rev Ken

At the risk of offending several posters, I think this argument is getting a little extreme. The only possible damage I could see might be a little water getting into the oil. That is highly unlikely to cause engine damage. I'm sure most of us are familiar with white gunge from condensation in rocker box covers which doesn't damage engines. If there had been a serious water leak there would have been plenty of evidence in a smoke screen as those of us who have had a cylinder gasket fail know full well! An apology with an extra years guarantee would satisfy me.

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alhendo1

Here's my tuppence worth....Honda should at the very least replace the engine....after all that is the heart of the bike....a replacement engine is nothing to a company of Hondas size....a missing head gasket is inexcusable. ..this gives the customer satisfaction and confidence if they decide to keep the bike long term

Or

Just replace the bike....given the low mileage and purchase from new it wouldn't be a huge hit for them...

If they did either of those options for me in that scenario they might gain credibility when you pass the word around that the matter had been dealt with satisfactorily. 

Hopefully the op gets the result they're happy with👍

Just for the record...I'm not particularly mechanically minded which is why the aforementioned options would provide me with the satisfaction I'd be looking for.

Edited by alhendo1
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Rocker66

Where do people think that replacing a bike would get them much good publicity.? In terms of a potential customer base only a few people would hear about it. People are very quick to put the word around bad service but very few comment on good.

Take this forum for instance anyone who read it for the first time would probably think that the NC range was very problematic which we know it isn’t. Even when Honda replaced all those VFR1200 engines the press and many of the public put a negative slant on the story costing Honda many sales. I know of 2 people who pulled out of buying them due to the way the press told the story.

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