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Engineer/mechanic advice requested please


Mister Paul

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For Honda I see no right or wrong path, whatever they do they will be criticised, but i dont believe they are trying to shaft anyone. I think its a fair and reasonable offer, if I was the customer I would take it.

For Honda I see no right or wrong path, whatever they do they will be criticised, but i dont believe they are trying to shaft anyone. I think its a fair and reasonable offer, if I was the customer I would take it.

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That was my next step!  

Summary, and update:   Honda UK offered me a year's additional warranty. I said that I was concerned about the resale value of the scoot and any future issues that might appear at some time

A few early production VFR 1200 engines were found to have manufacturing swarf in them. As a result Honda replaced the engines of the entire first production run, many of them unsold machines on the s

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alhendo1
1 hour ago, Rocker66 said:

Where do people think that replacing a bike would get them much good publicity.? In terms of a potential customer base only a few people would hear about it. People are very quick to put the word around bad service but very few comment on good.

Take this forum for instance anyone who read it for the first time would probably think that the NC range was very problematic which we know it isn’t. Even when Honda replaced all those VFR1200 engines the press and many of the public put a negative slant on the story costing Honda many sales. I know of 2 people who pulled out of buying them due to the way the press told the story.

Rocker...this is not bad service...as far as I'm concerned they've just been caught with something they can't wriggle out from....a missing head gasket is something that's unacceptable ..so they've offered the bare minimum of customer service/Required to provide the requisite reply...why not go the extra length and make things good with a cast iron wngine replacement. ...as I said in my previous post I'm not mechanically minded but I wouldn't be satisfied with their reply? As previously stated it's just my contribution and I wouldn't have any long term faith in the bike.

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fred_jb

I'm not sure about there being no damage from this - hot combustion gases were possibly escaping and damaging the head and cylinder mating surfaces which could make a head gasket failure in future more likely.  Depending on the combustion chamber design there may also have been some minor piston to valve contact if it normally relies on the thickness of the gasket to maintain clearances. There is also the possibility of damage or accelerated wear from the oil being adulterated.

 

This must be such a rare, almost one-off, manufacturing failure that it is not going to affect Honda's reputation unduly, nor lead to an unsustainable precedent with hordes of other gasket-less owners demanding new engines, should a request for a new engine be granted in this case. The only reputational danger to Honda is if their response is seen as inadequate and not commensurate with the seriousness of the failure.

 

I think overall it would be entirely reasonable to ask for a new engine, as there are just too many unknowns for a repair to be acceptable.  Failing that, the alternative might be for them to take the bike back and refund the purchase price, possibly less a small amount for the use had from it.

 

 

Edited by fred_jb
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fred_jb

Another thought on this - with the head gasket missing, then the engine would have been running with a higher than standard compression ratio, which in itself may have led to some damage, and combustion pressure and gases escaping into the engine could have caused damage to components and seals elsewhere, for example in the cooling system.  If it had been discovered after only a few miles then I don't think it would have been a problem, but given that it has done 1800 miles in this condition, then personally I would not be happy with a repair.

 

Might be worth commissioning an independent engineers report into this - it might cost a few quid, but could give you the ammunition needed.   I once had a timing pulley failure in my VW T4 based camper, causing the engine to be wrecked.  I commissioned an engineer's report which suggested that on the previous cambelt service VW had not replaced the main retaining bolt which is a stretch bolt which can only be used once, and my receipt for the service contained a charge for every other washer and bolt used, but not that one.  Consequently the crankshaft pulley loosened and fretted on its keyway resulting in a load of metal filings in the housing which were found by the engineer, leading him to this conclusion.  Result - new replacement engine at no cost to me.

 

 

Edited by fred_jb
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Andy m

I think you make your case to Honda and see what they say. Most riders keep a bike a few years and sell it with 15000 miles on the clock. Second hand buyers expect a given percentage will be abused. This repaired engine is going to make that expected life.

 

If you are a 10 year 100000 mile rider you tell them. If you expected to use an alternative service and spend less tell them that. If I was dealing with the warranty claim I'd want some sort of evidence it wasn't just man-child wailing, but you have to make a deal. No one wins if the lawyers get involved. They can of course just give you your money and maybe even a traded in bike back and walk away, so decide what you want. If you get silly Hondas lawyers will beat yours and you'll get your money back in three years time. The bad press is worthless unless you have more twitter followers than Stephen Fry, every buyer that you put off will be matched by another so fixed on a particular bike he'll dismiss your report as whinging. There is no mass movement saying Honda have endemic problems.

 

I'd take the repaired engine but ask for a free service in the third year to make up for not using the independent.

 

Andy

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Slowboy

Andy's point about the lawyers is spot on.

I would take the offer of a repaired engine and extended warranty. The chances of there being any issues as a result of the defect are so small as to be negligible. If all that was noticeable was the fluid leak and not some god awful (sorry Rev) rattling from the motor it'll be absolutely fine.

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Mister Paul

The tappets are noisier now. Is that likely to be just down to how they were adjusted*, or a suggestion of something else?

 

 

 

* From teenage years messing with mini engines and feeler gauges I think I know the answer to this one.

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8 minutes ago, Mister Paul said:

The tappets are noisier now.

Are they sounding the same now as someone else's bike?

 

They're offering a third year's warranty which is something that has a value. Applying a value:  If I was looking at buying your bike in a couple of years time, or an identical bike without that history then I'd choose the latter. But, finger-in-the air, if it was say £300 cheaper I'd be persuaded to take a punt. It would be interesting to get amounts from other people (wisdom of the crowd).

 

Repaired cat S & N are cheaper because of uncertainty, this is similar.

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Mister Paul
8 minutes ago, elbee said:

Are they sounding the same now as someone else's bike?

 

I don't know, I've never seen another SH300 outside of a dealer. 

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Slowboy

Could it be you are more sensitive to it and listening for any "unusual" sounds? I'm pretty sure I would be. Also it might well be down to adjustment, which I would think is most likely.

once it's settled in and you've got used to it again, I would expect it to be fine.

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Andy m

The Voices in your head will naturally scream blue murder that the repaired engine is about to explode, setting the atmosphere on fire and ending all human life in the process (this will also invalidate your insurance and cause the Cup Final to be indefinately postponed and it'll be your fault). Mine do anyway.

 

Watch the fuel economy/range, oil level and how well it pulls up hills. The numbers lie less often than the voices in your head. If its not performing, going back to Honda with notes on fuel use is a better argument. 

 

Andy

 

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I never met a TT rider who wasn’t convinced his engine was about to blow on the last lap and snatch victory from him. :)

 

Human nature.

 

Your bike will be fine. Engines are waaay tougher than folks think. Seriously. 

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steelhorseuk

So Mr Paul goes to his Honda dealer as a faithful customer.  He puts his 'hard earned' saved up cash on the table to purchase his pride and joy.

 

He believes faithfully that the product has been tried,  tested which it surely has (they sell a lot of these) and his particular bike has sailed through quality control at Honda.

 

He then finds out 1800 miles later that there is a serious defect in the main component of his pride and joy in the shape of a missing head gasket.

 

Assuming the bike was 'run in' with a missing head gasket ?   

 

Come on people, this is a new engine at the very least, with extended warranty and a free 'full service' at the next interval or the option to have his 'hard earned' money back should he choose to.....And throw in a written apology from Mr Honda.

 

-Mark-

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Rocker66

Don’t think we are going to get any level agreement on this as there are those that think Honda have committed a cardinal sin and should give the customer a new bike and those that think a mistake has been made and a reasonable level of rectification has been offered. Both are entitled to their opinion and if we were to discuss it for months nobody is going to change their view.

Now if you want something I consider a cardinal sin commited by Honda it's the fact that they named a scooter a Silverwing when a silver wing was actually a 650 V-Twin

silverwing1.jpg

Edited by Rocker66
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fred_jb
1 hour ago, Rocker66 said:

Don’t think we are going to get any level agreement on this as there are those that think Honda have committed a cardinal sin and should give the customer a new bike and those that think a mistake has been made and a reasonable level of rectification has been offered. Both are entitled to their opinion and if we were to discuss it for months nobody is going to change their view.

Now if you want something I consider a cardinal sin commited by Honda it's the fact that they named a scooter a Silverwing when a silver wing was actually a 650 V-Twin

silverwing1.jpg

Nice to see you trying to pour oil on troubled waters Rocker - some might think you were more likely to set fire to it and then fan the flames.  Just kidding! :D

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Andy m

Using the light from burning bridges to see a way ahead is always an option in my book! :)

 

Is that the Plastic Maggot engine in there? With the MOT changes I've been halfheartedly looking at 70's bikes with the aim of getting my sidecar moving again. CX500's were on the list until I found out they had no frame in front of the engine. 

 

Andy

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fred_jb
14 minutes ago, Andy m said:

Using the light from burning bridges to see a way ahead is always an option in my book! :)

 

Is that the Plastic Maggot engine in there? With the MOT changes I've been halfheartedly looking at 70's bikes with the aim of getting my sidecar moving again. CX500's were on the list until I found out they had no frame in front of the engine. 

 

Andy

Yes it was basically Le Maggott avec fairing, albeit the 650 cc version.

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Rocker66

I would love to find one like that now. Most of the ones I have seen advertised have either the fairing and/or the luggage missing

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i had the 500cc version for couriering bought with a leaking head gasket, when starting on a morning it would first run on one cylinder then when second cylinder started firing there would be  lots of steam coming out of the exhaust, as the radiator needed topping up regularly and was a pain to get to i replaced the radiator cap with a non pressurised one and strapped a  mini (car) expansion bottle with a pressure cap to the fairing so i could keep an eye on the water level, didn't look very good but lasted thousands of miles like it.

 

al

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2 hours ago, Rocker66 said:

Don’t think we are going to get any level agreement on this as there are those that think Honda have committed a cardinal sin and should give the customer a new bike and those that think a mistake has been made and a reasonable level of rectification has been offered. Both are entitled to their opinion and if we were to discuss it for months nobody is going to change their view.

Now if you want something I consider a cardinal sin commited by Honda it's the fact that they named a scooter a Silverwing when a silver wing was actually a 650 V-Twin

silverwing1.jpg

Reminds me of an old joke my dispatch rider mate told me at the time.

 

Knock.. knock..

 

How's there ?


CX500  !.

 

Although I believe that the VT500's were a lot worse, Which lead to Honda over engineering the VFR750 with gear driven cams (had 2.. Great bikes)

5a0b1bd5641af_HondaVFR750F.jpg.6956859f94f6d3b269bfc43b1878fea0.jpg

 

 

 

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Guest bonekicker

It looks like the discussion as been cooled down-- for my 2 pennyworth for what it's worth--of course Honda should take the blame for missing head gasket--what other damage and stress as been made to engine--you will may or not find in the future--offering a 12 extra warranty is still not enough--they should change the engine--or change your bike--it's as simple as that :thumbsup: No arguments about it-- But it's up to yourself--But you will have to play hard ball with them   :console:Good luck either way.

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suffolk58

image.png.2dca47da3b5c59a1cf1ca45a0d5645a1.png

Rocker's Alter Ego do you think? :)

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Rocker66
1 hour ago, bonekicker said:

It looks like the discussion as been cooled down-- for my 2 pennyworth for what it's worth--of course Honda should take the blame for missing head gasket--what other damage and stress as been made to engine--you will may or not find in the future--offering a 12 extra warranty is still not enough--they should change the engine--or change your bike--it's as simple as that :thumbsup: No arguments about it-- But it's up to yourself--But you will have to play hard ball with them   :console:Good luck either way.

How can you say that there is no argument about it when there has been several varying views posted. . But then Honda can do nothing right for you can they.

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Andy m

Why is Michael Jackson riding Batmans bike?

 

Andy

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Rocker66
1 hour ago, suffolk58 said:

image.png.2dca47da3b5c59a1cf1ca45a0d5645a1.png

Rocker's Alter Ego do you think? :)

image.png

Sorry but I don’t like most of the music of the artist formally known as Prince with Purple Rain being the exception. I certainly wouldn’t be seen in that frilly outfit😀😀

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