Engineer/mechanic advice requested please

[Spindizzy 7,109]

1 minute ago, Andy m said:

Why is Michael Jackson riding Batmans bike?

 

Andy

Useless fact. That bike had two speed transmission with torque converter. CM400 'Hondamatic'

 

[suffolk58 2,286]

2 minutes ago, Spindizzy said:

Useless fact. That bike had two speed transmission with torque converter. CM400 'Hondamatic'

 

Gosh you are spot on. (Craig Vetter fairing).

And all these years, there was me thinking it was a Silver Wing.

[Bart Stilgo 428]

Well.  Lots of views and thoughts so I will throw some of mine onto the fire

1.  How is the bike running now that the engine is back together.  It may be worth checking oil level and water for some time to check these do not show up any problems.  Get a test ride on a new NC and compare how your bike rides compared to the demo.  Acceleration and noise when cold and noise when hot that sort of thing,  My NC is clunky on gear changes when cold but quiet on valves and cam chain and when hot gear change is better and the engine noise is worse.  But its consistent. 

 

On long term usage you have no guarantees that it will make 100000 miles without issues.  None of us have this reassurance.  We get what we get.  We all enter into an agreement to purchase a bike HOPING everything will work out.  Sometimes it doesn't work out and we have issues along the way.  If these issue arise during the manufacturers warranty period we have a course of action to follow.  If it is outside this period then we are on our own and carrying the financial burden.

 

I'm an engineer and if the Honda dealer has inspected the mechanical parts as far as possible and reports back to say (as far as they are aware) the bike is ready to go back on the road then it is up to the rider to ride the bike and build confidence in the bike and start again to enjoy it.

 

2.  What guarantee do you have if the engine is changed you don't get other issues due to wiring or any other little issue with refitting.  Yes its under warranty but its reliability that counts

 

3.  What are the terms of the warranty.  Where I work it is us as manufacturer who chooses the corrective action.  We can change complete machines and we can change parts and we can repair.  The customer does not have the right to demand a resolution. 

 

4.  Honda don't give a rats a**se about our perceived image we have of them.  Their company is based on units sold.  If this was the first of many issues on one model they would be proactive but it seems this is a one off or at least very low numbers involved so they use their already existing systems to rectify the faults.

 

Get the bike back on the road and get riding.  Vary the type of riding to stretch the mechanics. 

Put some miles on the clock and see how the bike behaves and if any other issue arises  then you have a case to raise with the dealer and bike change or engine change may be an option.

 

Good luck

 

 

[Tex 36,816]

Seeing as the OP is riding around on his repaired bike and all is well Any further talk of new engines is a bit futile, no? 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2017 by Tex

[Rev Ken 6,327]

Remember Leyland Friday cars? Well I've got one from VW. My Golf Cabriolet, in 6 years and only 30,000 miles has had a complete new roof and mechanism and a replacement DSG gearbox. VW acknowledged they were faulty and replaced them free of charge, but fitting was expensive. Then two months ago I had a rear wheel bearing collapse shearing the ABS wires. That was a £300 bill, and blow me the other failed just a month later - even my ancient Porsche is cheaper to maintain. I've had several VWs over the last 55 years and this is the worst for reliability I've ever had, but can't afford to replace it. I can only thank my local VW agent as they have moved mountains to get free replacements and discounting labour costs. Even to-day they had my car in for a check of the 'new' DSG gearbox as it has started to 'judder'. They checked it on the computer, and reloaded the software, a 2 hour procedure and have done it free of charge. (Walkingshaws, voted the best VW agent in Cumbria.) 

 

So having just a missing head gasket seems fairly minor and I am of the same opinion as Rocker66 - we won't agree and I anticipate Honda won't budge after making what seems to me as a reasonable offer.

[Guest DelBoy]

2 hours ago, Spindizzy said:

Useless fact. That bike had two speed transmission with torque converter. CM400 'Hondamatic'

 

OMG I remember them. Awful bikes to start with. then they put an auto gearbox in it. what were they thinking...!!!   oh err...hang on..   !!!!! 

[Guest goldfish]

There have been many threads like this over time. Its easy to sit at a computer and rant when its not your bike.

 

Every day I deal with contracts and liability clauses. As the bike ran for, what, 6 months and 1800 miles, it wasn't spotted straightaway so the bike can't be rejected at point of sale. Honda are only obliged to take reasonable (in the eyes of the law not ours) measures to rectify and that's a repair to fix the fault (ie no gasket). If the dealer is on your side you might get extra leverage, especially if there is consequential damage - but you'll have to prove it. Proving that, or proving negligence, is virtually impossible under contract law and would certainly cost more than the bike is worth. You'd be more successful in appealing for goodwill measures - extended warranty, discounted service etc - and that will likely be of higher value to you anyway. As for demanding a new engine (just in case) or a new bike (because I'm worth it) then you're dreaming.

 

Or you do what everyone else does. Keep it for a year then trade it in.

[Trev 18,562]

I had a similar issue with my six week old, 1500 mile Ford Mustang a few weeks ago, the oil cooler went mixing oil and coolant. Understandably I was a little miffed!

I told the dealer I expected a replacement, brand new car and (long story short) they said they would do this although strongly not their preference as would cost them a lot of money. Instead they proposed a brand new engine (and ancillary bits and bobs such as radiator, hoses, heating coil which had all been contaminated) and a package to persuade me to go for this. They supplied a hire car for the duration of the motor replacement (about 4 weeks), total valet inside and out, 3 years free servicing and extended warranty by another two years to five in total.

I went for the replacement motor with  free services and extended warranty and feel happy with that but definitely would not have accepted specific components replace, it was whole motor or nothing. For me it would be the same with the 'missing head gasket' issue , replacement engine or I get all upset 

[Tonyj 6,907]

I would have a bet that all those people who say they would want a new bike/engine wouldn't replace the engine if they say had bought it secondhand and a fault developed . They would just get it fixed and move on :0) . In trevs  case ,well it's his own fault for thinking he's 21 again . Mustang at his age . He will be rocking up at Southend soon , giving it some ( true heritage model that , still breakdown just like the old ones ) 😂

im probably one of those odd people who don't get too upset at this stuff. If it was working when it went in albeit not to well but could be fixed I would most probably get it sorted and get them to acknowledge the works and if it went wrong  within a reasonable time they would be liable to resolve it . Like I say doctors get ill and undertakers die.

[Jeffprince 4,921]

There's a little more caveat emptor when  buying second-hand. 

[Tonyj 6,907]

To paraphrase mark twain " there's not a problem that can't be fixed with someone else's money " it's not all doom laden . Prostrated dealer managers offering their souls to be sacrificed for the unforgivable event . :0)

If it would be ok to fix .then , why not fix it . If it would present the dealer with a tidy claim surely he would be the first to get this resolved. 

I feel I'm fortunate to have used and still use Kent mc as my not so local dealer . I feel if I needed an honest appraisal about future issues then he would be straight up with me.

[Graham NZ 1,186]

Hi, Paul

 

I would be seeking a replacement bike.  A fault like that could have long term effects and is a risk Honda should stand, not you.  Even the risks involved it stripping a bike to fit a new engine would be more that I would accept.  Any fault which involves oil or water is too risky to accept repairs for.  A reason for buying new is to avoid risks so why accept them?  Even if you were to accept a repair would that be fair to future owners? 

 

Around 1975 I accompanied two friends to collect their brand new Honda CB500/4s.  One of the bikes had no engine oil in it and that bike was rejected.  It had been registered and was ready to be ridden away so was a headache for the dealer.  Had the bike been started like that?  Yes, so the risk of damage was too great to accept.  I don't know if those bikes were shipped without oil but many new bikes are.

[gonzo 2,211]

Rocker, tell me about the vfr engine replacements and the reason , i haven't heard about that one, ?

[Tex 36,816]

13 minutes ago, gonzo said:

Rocker, tell me about the vfr engine replacements and the reason , i haven't heard about that one, ?

 

A few early production VFR 1200 engines were found to have manufacturing swarf in them. As a result Honda replaced the engines of the entire first production run, many of them unsold machines on the showroom floor. They discovered a problem and dealt with it. 

 

More recently Triumph replaced the cylinder heads on a number of very early 1200 Explorers which had slightly noisy valve gear due to a machining intolerance. Affected owners were each given a brand new 1200 to use while their bike was being repaired. 

 

It’s not the problem, it’s how you deal with the problem.  

[Tex 36,816]

For the record, rejecting the machine was never an option in the case of the SH300 (yes, not an NC as some seem to think) without a head gasket. Before a vehicle can be rejected U.K. law requires that the manufacturer be given a chance to repair the fault. They repaired it. End of story. 

[fred_jb 10,264]

56 minutes ago, Tex said:

For the record, rejecting the machine was never an option in the case of the SH300 (yes, not an NC as some seem to think) without a head gasket. Before a vehicle can be rejected U.K. law requires that the manufacturer be given a chance to repair the fault. They repaired it. End of story. 

I would have to slightly disagree with you on that on Tex.  They may have repaired the initial fault, but they cannot definitively say that there was no consequential damage done in the 1800 miles it was running in that state, so they cannot be sure that all necessary repairs have been done.

 

If the shoe was on the other foot and you wanted to make a warranty claim for an engine problem and the dealer determined that you had been servicing the bike yourself and had not used the approved oil, then manufacturers can and do suggest that the fault was due to your actions and have been known to refuse repairs under warranty in these sort of situations.

 

In the OP's case the bike was running in a non-optimal state, probably with oil degraded by water mixing with it, for a long time, and this was the fault of the manufacturer, not the owner.  It may well have come through this ordeal unscathed, but because nobody can be sure about that, I think Honda should have replaced the engine as a precaution, and that is what I would want in that situation.

 

 

Edited November 17, 2017 by fred_jb

[SteveThackery 3,090]

24 minutes ago, fred_jb said:

In the OP's case the bike was running in a non-optimal state, probably with oil degraded by water mixing with it, for a long time, and this was the fault of the manufacturer, not the owner.  It may well have come through this ordeal unscathed, but because nobody can be sure about that, I think Honda should have replaced the engine as a precaution, and that is what I would want in that situation.

 

I think Tex's point is that you can want what you like, but the law won't support you unless you can prove that the engine has been damaged in some other way.

[Tex 36,816]

39 minutes ago, SteveThackery said:

 

I think Tex's point is that you can want what you like, but the law won't support you unless you can prove that the engine has been damaged in some other way.

 

One simple sentence sums it up. Suspicion that the engine ‘may’ have suffered will, along with £2.70, get you an espresso in Costa. 

[Trev 18,562]

13 hours ago, Tonyj said:

In trevs  case ,well it's his own fault for thinking he's 21 again . Mustang at his age . He will be rocking up at Southend soon , giving it some ( true heritage model that , still breakdown just like the old ones ) 😂

 

 

At 21 I could only just afford a ropey old escort (and a bike of course) let alone anything with any poke. I was sort of hoping it wouldn't break down quite as much as the original (at least not in the first two months!) but for sure it feels pretty archaic, even compared to the brand basic spec focus they loaned me while the mustang was off the road. Lots of scratchy hard plastic, placcy chrome buttons, noise and general lack of 'slickness' of a 'modern' car, and all the better for it, it's the antidote for the German repmobiles that dominate the market and puts a smile on my face whenever I drive it ......a bit like my old Reliant Supervan 3 did when I was a kid 

[DMB 1,341]

The law may well be on the side of Honda but I think they are making a big public relations mistake by not replacing the engine.  I'm not saying they have to replace the whole bike.  Just look at the damage Rocker66 must have done to Yamaha after his bad experience some years back.  I am sure Yamaha must have lost several sales as a consequence. They need to be careful, and grateful.  Rocker's honest and reasonable promotion of Kent Motorcycles will have done Honda a lot of good over the years.  As a gesture Honda should supply a brand new engine.  It's a simple as that.

 

If in a month's time I learn they have not done so I will think a lot harder about whether I wish to support them in the future.

Edited November 17, 2017 by DMB
Typo

[fred_jb 10,264]

2 hours ago, SteveThackery said:

 

I think Tex's point is that you can want what you like, but the law won't support you unless you can prove that the engine has been damaged in some other way.

The manufacturer may have the option to repair, but I think it rests on what you regard as an adequate repair in a case like this - I would argue that simply replacing the missing gasket and changing the oil and filter is not adequate, as it appears that they have done nothing to determine what other damage might have been caused. To me an adequate repair would be a strip down of the engine to determine what consequential damage, if any, had been incurred as a result of running with the initial fault for so many miles, and then putting right any issues this revealed.  This would probably not be an economically viable course of action for Honda, which is why I think they should replace the engine instead.  It seems that this is what is happening with Trev's Mustang, in a very similar situation, and it seems that Ford take the issue of consequential damage seriously enough to agree to do this.

 

Of course this is all just academic at this point if the repair has been accepted and the bike is back on the road!

 

Edited November 17, 2017 by fred_jb

[Tex 36,816]

Yes, Paul is happily buzzing around Bristol on his Honda. And we continue to debate Honda’s ethics of his doing so!  

 

None of us saw the engine oil that was drained out. Therein lies the key. If I was doing the repair and the oil came out clean I would consider the new gasket as entirely fine. If (I stress if) the oil came out like watery coffee I would want to go further.

 

The (presumably Honda accredited) tech was happy with his repair. And (following the examination of dealer sent photos) so were Honda U.K. 

 

I just can’t see what the fuss is about. But I’m a simple soul..  

[Rocker66 34,371]

38 minutes ago, Tex said:

Yes, Paul is happily buzzing around Bristol on his Honda. And we continue to debate Honda’s ethics of his doing so!  

 

None of us saw the engine oil that was drained out. Therein lies the key. If I was doing the repair and the oil came out clean I would consider the new gasket as entirely fine. If (I stress if) the oil came out like watery coffee I would want to go further.

 

The (presumably Honda accredited) tech was happy with his repair. And (following the examination of dealer sent photos) so were Honda U.K. 

 

I just can’t see what the fuss is about. But I’m a simple soul..  

Simon and simple now why does that sound familiar?🙄🙄

[fred_jb 10,264]

23 minutes ago, Rocker66 said:

Simon and simple now why does that sound familiar?🙄🙄

Simple Simon - wasn't he the guy who went to the fair and ate all the pies?  Not our Tex then, who I gather is looking particularly svelte these days following Mrs Tex taking total control over his diet!   

 

 

Edited November 17, 2017 by fred_jb

[Tex 36,816]

1 hour ago, fred_jb said:

Simple Simon - wasn't he the guy who went to the fair and ate all the pies?  Not our Tex then, who I gather is looking particularly svelte these days following Mrs Tex taking total control over his diet!   

 

 

 

Yes, Mrs Tex has done a sterling job. There's a couple of stone less of me than previously. And my cholesterol is now a healthy 3.8. She found it easy enough to do, denying me pleasure has been her mission in life for the thick end of 40 years now..