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is it Reset of the ECU ?


Guest MotiAlfia

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Guest MotiAlfia

Hi all

i replaced the stock muffler to a new LeoV LV ONE and its great (:

 

i wanted to check if the muffler change can harm my bike and i found this Post

https://www.bad link/forum/nc700-general-discussion/3956-resetting-ecu.html

 

i did the procedure and the results are very suprising (exacetly as in the post)

so suprising that i have to ask :

 

1.did anyone here did that procedure?

 

2.does someone knows what can change after that electric reset?

 

3.do you think that this is an ECU reset?

 

THX (:

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I've done it. Don't know if it truly does anything for the NC, but it can't do any harm. What it "might" do is adapt the idle speed controller set point and possibly centre the feedback control for fuelling. If you feel the refinement is at all lacking it's got to be worth a try, it's free. You never know, you might get your money's worth.

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Guest MotiAlfia

already did it today:D

that is why im asking,

It seems to good to be true.

suddenly i have more power and the gear change point is far from where it was..

feels like its another bike (kind of).

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Sounds very much like resetting the adaptation on a Triumph. Re-teaches the idle stepper motor postion to maintain a steady tickover during cold start and warm up. Exactly the same procedure.

 

TRIUMPH procedure ..

Reset adaption with TuneECU:

- start your bike. Make sure you don't touch / twist the throttle - just thumb the starter until she fires.
Watch the TPS indicator at the bottom left corner of the TuneECU screen. When it goes green
(after about 15 - 20 minutes bike has to come to temp etc....) the ECU has baselined the TPS.
- Disconnect ECU on the TuneECU menu.
- Turn off your bike.
- Disconnect your computer from the bike. Now have fun.

Edited by Trumpet
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SteveThackery
3 hours ago, MotiAlfia said:

already did it today:D

that is why im asking,

It seems to good to be true.

suddenly i have more power and the gear change point is far from where it was..

feels like its another bike (kind of).

 

I'm sorry, but I don't believe you!  :)

 

I mean, I think you are mistaken, and you have noticed something only because you were expecting to find it.  There is nothing about the ECU that requires resetting or "learning", except possibly the idle stop, which of course can't have any effect on the power and change points.

 

What nails it for me is this: there is absolutely no mention of it AT ALL in the official service manual.  Trust me, if there were anything in it, it would DEFINITELY be in the service manual.  There's no way Honda would leave out such an important procedure.

 

I've been fooled myself into finding a radical change in the behaviour of a motorcycle, only to find I was wrong and the whole thing was subjective.  That is why I NEVER trust my subjective impressions any more.

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27 minutes ago, SteveThackery said:

......What nails it for me is this: there is absolutely no mention of it AT ALL in the official service manual.  ......

Indeed, I agree, that's why I'm sceptical that it actually does anything. However my comment that it's free and can't do any harm still stands, nothing to lose. If you feel it's made an improvement we have a happy customer.

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Andy m

Its clearing the error memory, so basically does nothing. The 15 minutes at idle might have cooked some crud off the plugs, just your basic Italian tune-up. If it stored anything, how would it deal with being parked up? Ride one is at minus 3 and damp, ride two is 6 months later, at 23 degrees of dry air. If it ran the cold start settings and didn't react it'd die. Its just a control loop.

 

Andy

 

 

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42 minutes ago, MotiAlfia said:

 

somthing has changed but i dont know what it is.

 

 

Your expectations changed.. :) 

 

No, seriously, you made a change to your machine (the exhaust) and have a positive reaction from the part of your brain that expects good things to happen when you spend money.  Enjoy. 

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Graham NZ

My bikes have always felt better when they've just been cleaned.

  • Haha 2
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6 hours ago, Andy m said:

Its clearing the error memory, so basically does nothing. The 15 minutes at idle might have cooked some crud off the plugs, just your basic Italian tune-up. If it stored anything, how would it deal with being parked up? Ride one is at minus 3 and damp, ride two is 6 months later, at 23 degrees of dry air. If it ran the cold start settings and didn't react it'd die. Its just a control loop.

 

Well, the idle speed and fuel feedback are control loops, but they have a base value used for the initial setting, the idle speed controller goes to a certain point before you start cranking in order to give a suitable air flow. This will usually be a value relative to the hot stable idle position depending on temp/pressure etc. If there is a process by which it establishes the change during warm-up it's possible to adjust the start value to be more suitable for that particular engine.

Similarly the fuelling feedback control will be ramping rich/lean according to the lambda/oxygen sensor output. The correction in the ECU has a certain total range, and if the correction is working with an offset or bias in one direction it is possible to reset the "mid-range" value so it is no longer working towards one end. Sometimes the ramping in the rich/lean directions are different rates (for emission control reasons) and it works best if centred effectively. It can also help avoid false fault flagging.

These sort of adaptions usually are done under defined circumstances, you don't want it altering things randomly, which is why there is usually a specific procedure which the ECU will recognise as satisfying the requirements, either a service port instruction or possibly a defined procedure.

I don't know whether the NC has any of these sort of functions, maybe, maybe not. They are not particularly sophisticated processes for modern ECUs to perform if they are engineered to do it. I can't think it would do anything other than those 2 things, if at all.

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SteveThackery
14 hours ago, MotiAlfia said:

I agree

but its a bit strange 

i do feel diference, checked it today also..

somthing has changed but i dont know what it is.

 

 

Well, as others will tell you, I'm never too proud to admit a mistake, so I'm gonna try it on my bike this week and will report back!  :)

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SteveThackery
14 hours ago, Andy m said:

Its clearing the error memory, so basically does nothing.

 

Which bit clears the error memory?  (This is not a challenge, but a genuine question.)  Nobody has used battery-backed memory for a decade or more.  All the ECUs I've learned about use flash memory for temporary things like fault codes and the like, so disconnecting the battery shouldn't have any effect on them.

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SteveThackery
7 hours ago, embee said:

These sort of adaptions usually are done under defined circumstances, you don't want it altering things randomly, which is why there is usually a specific procedure which the ECU will recognise as satisfying the requirements, either a service port instruction or possibly a defined procedure.

 

This may well be true, but at uni we were taught that any adaptation required takes place continuously on modern systems, because any system which requires a special procedure to "reset" it (or "relearn", whatever) is not acceptable to the regulators as it could allow a vehicle to be operated for a long time whilst non-compliant with emission regs.

 

I'm a bit of an electronics guy and have messed a bit with ECUs, and I can say this: if I were designing an ECU from scratch myself, I wouldn't even consider making it require any kind of calibration, learning or resetting before it complied with the emission regs or ran properly.  I just don't see why it's necessary, except in the most contrived of corner cases.  Indeed, a system which specifically avoided such intervention would be far preferable.  Furthermore, a continuously adapting system would adjust automatically for engine wear, variable fuel quality, and so on.  

I think the ECU manufacturers would see it in the same way: they have a strong incentive to design a system which does not require any kind of intervention, calibration or resetting.  Honda do not want an ECU which requires occasional attention from a service agent.  A system which requires such is surely a poor design.

 

Edited by SteveThackery
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Depends what you mean by continuously. Adaption can be installed to work as and when needed/desired. There's no regulated requirement for it at all, an ECU can have no adaptive capabilities, it's basically up to the vehicle manufacturer to demonstrate compliance. If adaption can offer benefits, for example if you can get the system running as near optimum for emissions as possible all the time, you can reduce the cost of the emissions package (less precious metal loading or catalyst volume etc). Horses for courses.

A lot of the emission development work these days is aimed at reduced deterioration factors (DF), that's the factor applied to the standard which the manufacturer must demonstrate their vehicle meet. Manufacturers show their DF from durability testing and must submit the values. If say your 100k mile DF is 1.5, you have to meet 2/3 of the standard when new, which might mean a costly addition to cat volume etc. If by adaption you can reduce the DF to 1.25 for example (by compensating for changes in the system functioning), you need to meet 80% of the standard. Just examples.

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SteveThackery

I agree with all of that.

 

I'm just saying that none of that should require a "re-learning" intervention if the system is designed well.  It should be able to do it without a specific intervention.

 

The absence of any mention of it in the Service Manual surely proves my point in the case of the NC.

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True, though an engine management system on a bike is going to be pared down to the essentials. You might be able to make something self-optimising by means of a set service procedure rather than have it built into the normal operating software. A good example is the DCT clutch initialisation,  done when needed (i.e. from new or replacement of clutches or ECU) or if the regular wear and tear means that a re-establishment of a baseline is advantageous. I'm sure technically a system could be devised where it would do it automatically, but that would probably be significantly more complex to achieve, whereas a simple intervention works OK.

It's largely down to cost effectiveness. Product engineering is all about compromise. Car EMS can warrant the extra costs and complexities, I doubt budget bike equipment can justify it as easily. There are certainly fairly capable bike management systems in use now, all the traction/throttle/shifting features on the upmarket models doesn't come cheap.

 

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Andy m
8 hours ago, SteveThackery said:

 

Which bit clears the error memory?  (This is not a challenge, but a genuine question.)  Nobody has used battery-backed memory for a decade or more.  All the ECUs I've learned about use flash memory for temporary things like fault codes and the like, so disconnecting the battery shouldn't have any effect on them.

ECU's have limited flash memory for faults and EEPROM for the main parameters. These so called "resets" instruct the ECU to wipe the flash memory. When they see a set sequence they wipe it. £60 quid and 30 seconds later the bike is fault free and the punter is happy. If there is a real issue it'll be back the next time the conditions occur.

 

Andy

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Excellent article there. Bear in mind it was written about 15yrs ago based on the comments about reaching goals by 2005.

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SteveThackery
15 hours ago, Andy m said:

ECU's have limited flash memory for faults and EEPROM for the main parameters. These so called "resets" instruct the ECU to wipe the flash memory. When they see a set sequence they wipe it. £60 quid and 30 seconds later the bike is fault free and the punter is happy. If there is a real issue it'll be back the next time the conditions occur.

 

Yes, yes, I know all that.  I'm talking about disconnecting the battery - battery-backed memory isn't used in any ECU these days.

 

By the way, I don't think EEPROM is used much these days, either, because flash will do much the same job.

Edited by SteveThackery
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Andy m
7 hours ago, SteveThackery said:

 

Yes, yes, I know all that.  I'm talking about disconnecting the battery - battery-backed memory isn't used in any ECU these days.

 

By the way, I don't think EEPROM is used much these days, either, because flash will do much the same job.

Every approved ECU uses EEPROM. It may be just a way of avoiding testing tests, but they do.

 

Andy

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12 hours ago, SteveThackery said:

 

Nice article, although quite a different system from that used on our NCs.

 

So why does it have a section called PGM-FI SYSTEM in the workshop manual (page 4-1 onwards)? Granted it's probably been improved a lot since that article was produced as well as being integrated with the DCT system where appropriate.

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