Bad Starting

[rjp996 1,091]

Well had the second time in the past week where the bike was not keen to start in the morning. It usual turns for about 1 second and fires right up. This morning it turned over for about 6 seconds and I could hear the turn over starting to slow a fraction at the end. Switch off bike and back on again and it fired right up...

 

question I guess is do I have a weak battery.... not sure as it was Turing over aok - just starting to show a slow down after 6 seconds, and once turned off and on - fired right up.

 

This was in the morning after begin left probably 10hrs overnight, but it gets a good charge (or should be) from a 2.5-3hrs of fast motorway each day.

 

Fact it turned freely and not fired and then did on restart makes me wonder if its something else is up (thought to check the HISS light next time it happens)

[Tex 36,816]

Batteries frequently fail in the cold weather. A healthy battery should crank an engine for a full 30 seconds without slowing. Time for Santa to bring you a new one, eh?  

[steelhorseuk 1,689]

Is the bike outside all night in the zero temperature winter nights without a conditioner attached ?

if so, it's probably in need of a little TLC! Attach a battery conditioner or as Tex says, treat the bike to a new battery!

-Mark-

 

 

[rjp996 1,091]

thanks - is there any check I can do on the charging circuit to conform its health (or not) ?

[Tex 36,816]

1 minute ago, rjp996 said:

thanks - is there any check I can do on the charging circuit to conform its health (or not) ?

 

Not without a multimeter. But think about it, if it wasn’t charging you’d not get through those 3 hour commutes.  

[embee 7,288]

This is a good comprehensive guide

https://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf

 

Simplest thing though is just attach a multimeter direct to the battery terminals and see what volts you have before trying to start, then just after it has started , and then when revved up to a reasonably high engine speed.

Check to make sure you hear the fuel pump prime when you turn the ignition on, I had an issue with tarnished pins in the connector to the right hand switch gear feeding the kill switch. This feed enables both the cranking and the fuel cut relay. On mine it stopped the feed so neither the fuel pump nor starter worked, but if it was another pin it could be just the fuel cut while still allowing crank. Just a thought. I suspect it's more likely simply the battery getting tired, but could be more.

Edited December 21, 2017 by embee

[rjp996 1,091]

true especially with my heated grips on....

 

I may put a multi meter on the battery and just see if the voltage runs up to see if above 12v when engine revving - im assuming that the voltage will be 13.5-14v if the Stator is working well ?

[rjp996 1,091]

Thanks Murray - think you posted the answer to my question as I posted the next question ;-)

 

[Tex 36,816]

I wonder if my Triumph battery would fit? You could keep it charged up over winter for me!  

[rjp996 1,091]

;-)

[trisaki 2,029]

Are you starting it on the side stand  - mine was doing exactly the same - pulled the switch apart sprayed everything in sight  including the connector block  up under the sidepanel   now starts a treat  everytime 

[poldark 1,509]

If you have the frunk 12V then invest in one of these for the princely sum of £1.22p.

 

Item no. 1249454907 on Fleabay

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by poldark

[rjp996 1,091]

Well broke down on the way home tonight.....

 

bike started red well after sitting over Christmas, then when I went to leave work tonight, it turned and turned without firing. 

Turned off bike and back on again, and it started right up..

 

45miles later however going through Tunbridge wells, the bike cut out and came to a stop - quickly as the DCT stayed in geAr. 

 

Bike would then then not restart. Checked the cut uff switch, and also checked the HISS light was going out ok, but would not start. In the 5 mins I was stopped looking for the breakdown number I tried t one more time and it fired up.....

 

now for the hard part... trying to fault find when the bike is working again, and hoping it does not stop again on the M25 tomorrow 

[Tex 36,816]

Diagnosis on a running engine is always a bugger. You’re much better off if it stays dead. OK, not helpful.  

 

Initial reaction is an electrical connection. First thing I would look at, on a ‘used all weather’ bike, would be the side stand switch. I don’t have a wiring diagram to hand, sadly, but that switch will always cut the ignition and is perfectly placed to be sprayed with salty filth from the tyres. 

[Guest machinman]

I think your bang on the money their Tex.

[rjp996 1,091]

Thanks Tex, I will take a look. Would maybe explain the bike cutting out (the side stand) but not the non re starting. May however not even be the same issue, so next port of call will be he side stand :-)

[embee 7,288]

As per my previous question, when it won't start do you hear the fuel pump prime? If it is a poor connection in the return from the kill switch to the fuel-cut relay it will prevent the pump and thus engine from running but it will still crank. If the engine is running and this feed is lost due to intermittent contact it will stop. Prime candidate for this fault is tarnished pins in the connector about a foot away from the handlebar switch, on mine it is blue, don't know about later models.

If the engine is running in gear and the sidestand switch loses contact it will stop, as others say, but when stationary and in neutral it should start even with the switch faulty, it will then just stop when you try to put it in gear, the switch is open in the stand down position so no different if the contacts are good or faulty.

Check the fuel pump runs when you turn the ignition on.

[rjp996 1,091]

thanks for that Murry, your explanation seems to fit the bill - I will be taking a look through kill switch, see what resistances I get.

Bike ran ok into work today, but if it fails again before the weekend when I can take a look I will take note of the fuel pump priming.

 

thanks

 

 

[Tex 36,816]

My reasoning (such as it is!) is that after the engine cut out in Tunbridge Wells I bet you dropped the side stand and got off the bike? When you folded the stand back up you ‘solved’ the problem because the stand switch made contact.

 

 Murray (as always) makes a convincing case. I’m sure it will be one or the other!  

 

Richard, seriously, be bloody careful on that M25. It’s no place to breakdown. I would honestly suggest you use the Affy Twin for a couple of days. The thought of an engine cutting out in the middle of that motorised madness makes me shudder..

[embee 7,288]

If you do look at the kill/start switch, the most likely candidate will be the connector pin where the black/red joins the black in the 8pin blue connector (8P(Bu), this is for a NC700, 750 colours may be different). The power comes up the white/yellow, through the kill/stop switch and then supplies the fuel cut relay (black/red to black) and also the starter switch (black/red to yellow/red). If the starter is turning it shows power is getting through the kill switch itself, but if the pump isn't priming then it's probably not getting past the black/red to black connection.

It may be something else.

 

If the pump is not priming or running at all, and you're getting power through the 8P/Bu connector to the fuel cut-of relay, then there's another connector down next to the fuel tank behind the left side panel which does the pump and the fuel level. Check that also (again, this is 700 so could be different on 750).

Edited January 3, 2018 by embee

[commuter 262]

A bit of a grumble of mine has always been the way that factories don't build motorcycle electrics with some form of dielectric grease ( silicone grease or petroleum jelly.)in the connections . Dielectric grease never sets and yet seals the contacts from moisture/air/corrosion. Whenever I get my hands on a new bike, I take apart the electrical connectors  one by one, grease them and put them back together again. By doing this, if i ever get an electrical fault such as the ones described in this post, I start by looking for a failed component since i have confidence in all the electrical connections. It saves a lot of diagnostic time whilst preventing needless breakdowns too. WD40 is used by many but unbeknownst to many can cause problems because it sets like a varnish and actually encourages poor electrical contact.If one wished to treat ones switchgear to a beneficial water proofer, a hypodermic syringe filled with warmed up vasylene does a brilliant job of getting the stuff into where you need it. If you don't know where to obtain a hypodermic syringe,there are those who can tell you where to get clean needles no questions asked. I kept one which the doctor used on me to administer pain killer some years ago.

 Conductive grease will do the trick but only short term since it is prone to getting where it shouldn't and can cause a short circuit.

[Grumpy old man 4,670]

Hi 

I picked up syringes at my local spend and save apparently used for baking .

[Andy m 23,436]

From a manufacturing point of view grease is an utter PITA. You have to do all the H&S stuff related to people slipping, eating it, not washing their hand before they go to the lav etc. You need to control the quantities used, too much is waste, too little defeats the object. This involves expensive equipment. You have to buy the stuff in quantities that match your ability to store it in the right way. 

 

I have been working in the automotive industry for a quarter of century and think we've just about got connectors that do what everyone wants. Sureseals were the first ones that really worked. The seal on the body is compressed as you push it together and the clip on the back tells you its done it. The downside to these were the grommets round the cable. You have to use the right size (yellow small, red medium etc.). You also have to crimp the connector on at the right length so there is enough room to slide the grommet into the body. The better way is to RF weld the cable into the body. You then need to change the seal material. What they do is fit a sliding clip with a wedge slot that converts movement 3/4 of the body width into the 0.5mm of compression the hard seal needs. Using the wedge clip type fasteners we get a water ingress failure rate under 5 parts per million on electronics mounted under commercial trailers. This is an environment where road salt forms stalagmites and the expectation is 7 years or a couple of million miles use .

 

What I find annoying is that the motorcycle industry is using connectors designed for inside car bodies in the 1980's. I can understand the likes of Moto Guzzi would need to buy a years supply of looms in one hit to keep the cost down as RF welding needs setting up. Honda have little excuse. It's like a lot of bike related items though, big supermarkets will reject a trailer without a loom they believe is waterproof, they can't have it breaking down with Birminghams entire supply of icecream for the next 3 days onboard. No one walks out of the Ducati showroom in disgust so long as they convince you red is a sexy colour.

 

I use silicone spray,

 

Andy

Edited January 5, 2018 by Andy m

[Tex 36,816]

I was doing a bit of fault finding on the Street Triple and found the connection I was looking at was nicely greased inside. I don’t know if it was Triumph did that or the last poor sod who was trying to get the horn to work.. 

[embee 7,288]

As Andy says. When doing reliability work in the car industry it was clear that the no.1 cause of gremlins was connectors. A lot of development work was done particularly back in the late 1980's by car and electrics suppliers to come up with the sort of sealed connector we see nowadays. Anyone remember the old bullet connector with green gunge extruding out of the ends and wires dangling off with green ends exposed?

I strongly suspect the issue I had was present from build, it looked like just 2 pins in the connector block were tarnished, all the rest in the connector were shiny and no other evidence of moisture ingress. Maybe a problem with tarnished pins or contamination at harness assembly? The bike had not been used during winter in its life. One of those things.