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Bike Engine v Car Engine...more maintenance required..


alhendo1

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alhendo1

I've been looking at the CB500 and see that it needs the valve clearances checked every 16k....and it's got me wondering. ...why?...my small 3 cylinder 1.0 litre car requires an oil change every 10k miles, has a timing chain that shouldn't require changing in it's working life and should never need it's valve clearances checked....I was always under the impression that bike engines worked at higher revs/worked harder than car engines and thus required more maintenance .but surely they could extend those intervals a bit longer?...if I was doing a high mileage  (hypothetically) on a CB then thats a fair exspense....getting the valves checked at those intervals....I don't have a great understanding of engines so maybe the more technically gifted can explain. ...and no...I haven't lost the plot posting this time...I'm coming to the end of my nightshift😴

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Why would they extend it? No one ever walked out of a bike showroom in disgust at the service interval. The company accountants on the other hand limit my choice of repmobile.   Do not assum

How is Percy doing by the way? 😀😀 Tell him Victor says hello😀

Mrs T had one of those as a loaner while hers was in for work. Fun little car!   As to the original question, I think Andy is pretty close to the mark. Folks love their motorcycles. They enj

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Andy m

Why would they extend it? No one ever walked out of a bike showroom in disgust at the service interval. The company accountants on the other hand limit my choice of repmobile.

 

Do not assume the mileages are set by engineers. We have evidence they are not. Oil from VStroms in the US suggests the life could be doubled. Triumph posted me a new service book on the day Harley went to 6000 arbitrarily adding 2000 miles to give 6 . Long distance riders routinely ignore the intervals and few suffer mechanical issues (low quality electrics get you).  I have been to meetings on this (not on cars, larger vehicles) and the loudest voices are the parts salesman (wanting shorter intervals) against the vehicles salesman (wanting longer). Servicing is just a product to be sold in the market conditions.

 

Andy

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larryblag
1 hour ago, alhendo1 said:

...and no...I haven't lost the plot posting this time...I'm coming to the end of my nightshift😴

:hug:

A lot of cars these days (and Harley Davidsons) have hydraulic tappets or lifters so adjustment is continuous and automatic. Which car is it?

The CB1100 forum has a very useful topic post that's been going for a few years where owners have posted mileage and valve clearance information. This particular bike it seems hardly ever needs adjustment with one owner who's covered a whopping 60,000 miles with still no adjustment needed saying he's "done with checking them ever again". Whilst I do recommend them being checked and adjusted as per the book it does at least give us even more confidence in Honda's build quality :D

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alhendo1
1 hour ago, larryblag said:

:hug:

A lot of cars these days (and Harley Davidsons) have hydraulic tappets or lifters so adjustment is continuous and automatic. Which car is it?

The CB1100 forum has a very useful topic post that's been going for a few years where owners have posted mileage and valve clearance information. This particular bike it seems hardly ever needs adjustment with one owner who's covered a whopping 60,000 miles with still no adjustment needed saying he's "done with checking them ever again". Whilst I do recommend them being checked and adjusted as per the book it does at least give us even more confidence in Honda's build quality :D

The car is a Hyundai I10 1.0litre 3 cylinder...zzzzz.....it's actually not a bad wee car to drive....handles like a go cart😅

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Tex
10 minutes ago, alhendo1 said:

The car is a Hyundai I10 1.0litre 3 cylinder...zzzzz.....it's actually not a bad wee car to drive....handles like a go cart😅

 

Mrs T had one of those as a loaner while hers was in for work. Fun little car!

 

As to the original question, I think Andy is pretty close to the mark. Folks love their motorcycles. They enjoy lavishing attention on them, love fiddling about with them (why else would they put up with exposed drive chains) and love the thought that their ‘highly strung, high performance engine’ needs moly codling like an aging Hollywood diva. 

 

Some of these daft sods even give those motorcycles a name.. (cough).

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Rocker66
39 minutes ago, Tex said:

 

 

Some of these daft sods even give those motorcycles a name.. (cough).

How is Percy doing by the way? 😀😀

Tell him Victor says hello😀

Edited by Rocker66
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Trev
35 minutes ago, Tex said:

 

Some of these daft sods even give those motorcycles a name.. (cough).

 

Yup, that is daft but I won't hold it against you :D

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Mr Toad

I've owned and ridden many motorcycles over the years since number one when I was sixteen and other than the the first service on the few new bikes I've never had a dealer service.

 

I always do my own, it started to because it saved me money but now I do it because I enjoy it and it saves me money. Nearly all my bikes did higher than average miles and a couple did a lot more, I did 120,000 on my Honda VF1000 Bol D'or and 185,000 on my BMW R1100RS, I was doing 40k miles per year.

 

None of my bikes have ever suffered a serious mechanical breakdown. I did check the clearances at the first couple of recommended distances but most of them didn't need adjustment so I rarely bothered after that especially if half the bike had to come apart to get to them. 

 

Having said that I do think that engines liked to be used and if you look after the oil and other basics they'll reward you with long service baring component failure. 

 

Obviously the above is my own experience and was my choice, there's nothing scientific about it. However, economically it's a different matter, the money I've saved on service costs, particularly on the higher mileages covered, will have gone a long way to paying for at least a couple of bikes or covered some of the running costs.  

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SteveThackery
2 hours ago, Tex said:

Some of these daft sods even give those motorcycles a name.. (cough).

 

God, how embarrassing is that?

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embee

I think Andy more or less hit the nail on the head in his own inimitable way.

Car servicing has always been a significant factor in ownership decisions, dealers want it but owners/users don't, especially fleet operators. The car they buy is the one which causes them least hassle usually, which includes having to take it into a dealership for servicing. Cars do get a lot more intensive development and proving work done than motorcycles, the life cycle is also usually quite a bit longer and the numbers made are a couple of orders of magnitude bigger so economies of scale enter the equation.

Any engine can be made to give extended service intervals if the manufacturer wants to.

As far as oil changes go, if you do high mileage and mainly long trips then you can usually safely extend the change interval. It's up to you. Engines are not usually designed to be critical on oil, there are too many variables out in the real world to be too edgy with the design, it needs to be "robust" and tolerant. A Honda Cub C50 etc will probably run on anything vaguely resembling oil, or even none at all for a reasonable time.

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Andy m

There are technology changes for sure. I had a Ural and Enfield back in the noughties and parts would actually wear and break. My 1985 K100 had similar Bakelite style plastic parts and Mazak castings like aero chocolate. The oil would come out sooty and gritty. The K bike got 80 HP from 900cc, weighed a ton and averaged 40 mpg. Things have moved on and I really do struggle to see why we still need the service routines. I can understand the 600 because they should be checking fork bolts and the like having assembled it from a crate (not a factor with cars), but if they dropped the oil change it would be ride in, ride out. £120 for a certifiable torque check, you'd wonder who'd decide not to bother.

 

The CB is having the 600 as I type. I wonder if they'll find my paint mark on the tank bolts? 😇🤠🤥 or their X-ray vision and Teleporter will be used? Honestly I hope they just check the oil level and stamp the book, what they don't touch they can't break. I view warranty in a similar vein, I pay their charges, they claim they'll pay for any problem. Its insurance and like any insurance relies on them not welching on the bet when you win. Personally, after 8000 miles I'll assume the odds are in favour of me not winning so I won't play anymore.

 

Andy

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Trev

I'll throw this in the mix, the BMW i3 I have as a company car on a 12,000 mile pa lease agreement is not due it's first service until Nov 2019, that will be two years 24,000 miles. My lease is full service but when I checked the service charges when I was thinking of going non-maintenance they were far lower than I would have paid for a diesel BMW. I assume far few moving parts and serviceable items together with no oils, coolant or exhaust/emissions control systems significantly reduce the time and materials costs? For me, not having to visit a dealer for two years is a definite plus.

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Andy m
15 minutes ago, Trev said:

not having to visit a dealer for two years is a definite plus.

 They've realised either you aren't going to buy a new car after 13 month, or that its more effective to bombard you with images of the new, improved, attractiveness improving, cooler, hipper, more-classic, extra featured one via the interweb.

 

If you get a loan bike have you ever noticed there are three types: The commuter thats cheaper for them to run and no one ever drops, the unpopular model they can't sell, the "upgrade" from yours. BMW would loan you any old rubbish at the first service (F650, R1200C etc.) but at the first MOT would suddenly want you to ride the new GS. Can't think why.

 

Andy

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arengle
5 hours ago, larryblag said:

:hug:

A lot of cars these days (and Harley Davidsons) have hydraulic tappets or lifters so adjustment is continuous and automatic. Which car is it?

The CB1100 forum has a very useful topic post that's been going for a few years where owners have posted mileage and valve clearance information. This particular bike it seems hardly ever needs adjustment with one owner who's covered a whopping 60,000 miles with still no adjustment needed saying he's "done with checking them ever again". Whilst I do recommend them being checked and adjusted as per the book it does at least give us even more confidence in Honda's build quality :D

Do the new CB1100EX still require every 8k valve check or they change the request to 16k?

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Trev
1 hour ago, Andy m said:

 They've realised either you aren't going to buy a new car after 13 month, or that its more effective to bombard you with images of the new, improved, attractiveness improving, cooler, hipper, more-classic, extra featured one via the interweb.

 

 Have you actually seen an i3? It will need a hack of a lot of 'improvements' to make it look cool :D

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Andy m

Ah,  it'll be funky then.

 

I sat next to a marketing bloke for two years. He started out convinced he could never be replaced by a machine. Now he works in data mining, the ones who can get the targetted turkeys to vote for Christmas. One of those Frankenstein moments.

 

Andy

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Tex
29 minutes ago, Trev said:

 Have you actually seen an i3? It will need a hack of a lot of 'improvements' to make it look cool :D

 

I (respectfully) disagree, Trev. The first one of those Mrs T and I saw was in the window of a BMW dealership next to a holiday hotel we were in for a week or so. We walked past it many times and frequently stopped to admire the styling. I didn’t find out it was an EV until our return to the U.K. 

 

The BMW bike dealership was right next door and, I must confess, I never saw anything in their window that appealed as much! 

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larryblag
3 hours ago, SteveThackery said:

 

God, how embarrassing is that?

Ethel and Cedric say Hi:D

 

Cedric

 

Edited by larryblag
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larryblag
3 hours ago, Andy m said:

The K bike got 80 HP from 900cc, weighed a ton and averaged 40 mpg.

Almost exactly what the CB1100 manages Andy :frantics:

I tend to agree with everything else you've said too Andy especially the oil change and stamp in the book opinion. The CB has nearly 1,000 miles on it and I'm a bit nervous of their "spannering" to be honest. I should get it in though it's a lovely bike and I intend to keep it.

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larryblag
2 hours ago, arengle said:

Do the new CB1100EX still require every 8k valve check or they change the request to 16k?

Adrian, according to the (CB1100) forum it's 12,000 miles now but according to my service book it's still 8,000, 16k, 24k etc.

Not sure how I feel about that yet.

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Andy m

Well, the first service is done. As suspected the valves were not checked, but they didn't say they had on the bill either. They also seem to think the next one is due at 6000 miles. Dream on, the book says 8000 so they are either clueless (Padgetts are a Yamaha shop that keeps Honda for the race team) or taking the ****,  I suspect the former.

 

So, if all it really needs is checking to make sure its bolted together properly, they could IMHO follow the car makers on the oil.

 

Andy

 

 

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Tex

Valve checks at 600 miles were very necessary on OHV motors. God knows, I did enough of them (working to the ‘rule of 9’ I could still do it with my eyes shut). OHC designs are vastly superior in that respect, even screw and locknut, and I can’t imagine a shim needing changing at such a low mileage. Providing they’re not charging you for work they haven’t done I say leave it be.

 

In the Cotswolds earlier this week I met an Australian couple touring Europe on a 1200 Super Teneré. It’s warped a front rotor and they were looking for a reputable Yamaha dealer. As they were on their way to the TT I told them to have a word with the Padgetts team and, hopefully, get something sorted out for when they get back to the mainland. I know nothing of their non racing business, but the race team are as straight as they come.

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Andy m

Padgetts are your standard Japanese bike dealer. I've had two bikes from them, they both turned up as requested, were to spec, were serviced at 600 miles and that's that. Certainly no complaints and I'll go back. 

 

Andy

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Tex
3 hours ago, larryblag said:

Adrian, according to the (CB1100) forum it's 12,000 miles now but according to my service book it's still 8,000, 16k, 24k etc.

Not sure how I feel about that yet.

 

Checking the valves on a big old air cooled lump that isn’t encased in loads of plastic shouldn’t be too much bother. I assume it’s ‘shim under bucket’ which means the cams have to come out to actually adjust them? The early DOHC fours (and sixes) from Honda were shim over bucket and were an absolute piece of cake. :) 

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larryblag

That's correct. I'll get em done by somebody who knows the first time. After that - me :P

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