Bike Engine v Car Engine...more maintenance required..

[alhendo1 3,045]

22 hours ago, Andy m said:

Well, the first service is done. As suspected the valves were not checked, but they didn't say they had on the bill either. They also seem to think the next one is due at 6000 miles. Dream on, the book says 8000 so they are either clueless (Padgetts are a Yamaha shop that keeps Honda for the race team) or taking the ****,  I suspect the former.

 

So, if all it really needs is checking to make sure its bolted together properly, they could IMHO follow the car makers on the oil.

 

Andy

 

 

I'm seriously considering going for a new Cb500x and asked the salesman how much the first service (including valve clearance check) would be..he got the head mechanic out and he said they wouldn't even check that at 600 miles....he said that it would be left to the next scheduled check and would only be changing the oil/filter and a basic running in type check.... £120....I asked him if he was certain as I understood it to be required. ...he was adamant there was no need to check them so early and said they don't do them and obviously charge accordingly ....Honda main dealers so I guess there wouldn't be any issue with a warranty claim in the future. 

[alhendo1 3,045]

Just checked with google....he's right...they no longer do them till 16k....apparently this was required on 2013 models for some reason. ...strange.

[Tex 36,817]

6 minutes ago, alhendo1 said:

Just checked with google....he's right...they no longer do them till 16k....apparently this was required on 2013 models for some reason. ...strange.

 

Thanks. I do remember being surprised when the valve clearance check was included in the first service of the earlier 500s. I guess Honda were just playing it safe with a brand new design being produced in a new factory. Honda have a reputation to uphold after all. 

[Ciaran 6,880]

I can testify they were doing valve clearance checks on the CB500 up until 2016 or so. I had one of the last 2015 model 500X models sold by Farnham Honda (sharks, by the way) before they brought in the newer 2016 versions with LED lights and the new paint scheme. The manual clearly required the valve clearances be checked at 600 miles and Crescent, who I now use and trust, agreed that it should at least be checked.

 

Low and behold, the 2016 version doesn't require it. I think the CB500 series were the first big bikes Honda manufactured in the factories in Thailand/Taiwan were they not? Probably being overly cautious.

 

I've often wondered whether the narrow servicing intervals on bikes is strictly necessary. I own a car with a 1.2 three cylinder turbopetrol, theoretically a fairly highly strung and strained little motor in a car the size of a Ford Focus but the servicing intervals are every 20,000 according to Citroen. Weirdly the four cylinder turbodiesels are every 12,500; doesn't seem conducive for something likely to be doing more miles???

Edited May 26, 2018 by Ciaran1602

[Andy m 23,527]

First service was £100 +VAT so I guess a standard price. The handbook still says to inspect the valves, but as you all say, once they put the stamp in the book its in warranty (whatever that's worth). Having priced up a genuine Honda logo'd oil filter and the oil its not that much extra for the stamp, one reason I didn't rip the warranty up at 600 miles. At 8000 I will go DIY, its just a case of how near I am to the 2 years to decide on logo'd or not logo'd filter. Using genuine parts is one less argument if you do try to claim after going DIY. 

 

Andy

[alhendo1 3,045]

1 hour ago, Tex said:

 

Thanks. I do remember being surprised when the valve clearance check was included in the first service of the earlier 500s. I guess Honda were just playing it safe with a brand new design being produced in a new factory. Honda have a reputation to uphold after all. 

Yes Tex...from waht I can see on the web it was exactly that....brand new design etc....unfair for those that were the guinea pigs though👎

Edited May 26, 2018 by alhendo1

[Rocker66 34,437]

My first CB500X was a 2014 model and that did nor require a valve check at the 600 mile service.

[Tex 36,817]

42 minutes ago, Rocker66 said:

My first CB500X was a 2014 model and that did nor require a valve check at the 600 mile service.

 

Are you sure, matey? I thought all the earlier models had it as part of the schedule? Not all (any?) dealers did it though.

 

I remember it caused quite a stir at the time.

 

https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new-bikes/2013/july/jul0413-honda-cb500-valve-clearance-shock/

 

 

Edited May 26, 2018 by Tex
Edit to add link.

[Rocker66 34,437]

33 minutes ago, Tex said:

 

Are you sure, matey? I thought all the earlier models had it as part of the schedule? Not all (any?) dealers did it though.

 

I remember it caused quite a stir at the time.

 

https://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/new-bikes/2013/july/jul0413-honda-cb500-valve-clearance-shock/

 

 

Positive as I checked before I bought it both with the dealer and with the guys on the forum. The previous model did require it.

That link is to a 2013 article so at the time would be correct.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Rocker66

[Tex 36,817]

There we are then. Now we know.  

[Rocker66 34,437]

Just now, Tex said:

There we are then. Now we know.  

We posted together as I was editing my post to say that the link is to a 2013 article so it would have been correct at the time.

[Tex 36,817]

2 minutes ago, Rocker66 said:

We posted together as I was editing my post to say that the link is to a 2013 article so it would have been correct at the time.

 

Yes matey. I know it was about the first year models. I hadn’t realised Honda had dropped the 1st valve check so quickly, that’s all. Possibly the weight of public opinion forced their hand? As in, sales dropping because of perceived high service costs. 

[rainmaker 74]

I think non hydraulic valve self-adjusters are nuisance for modern and non ultra high rev engine.

 

For example Honda put relatively complex and expensive DCT transmission (because customers want it) but left 7 hours maintenance job to be done on regular intervals on non stressed and low rev engine in Africa Twin to save some pennies itself and please garages (cause customers appear do not really care for this that much). And to add to the insult a not cheap service pack would include the valve check, but not the actual adjustment as it would add time and cost on top of these 7 hours as it may involve removing the camshaft. That's a lot of frame and engine disassemble for something which suppose to be routine maintenance!

 

I guess that comes true because these type of vehicles nowadays are more of a toy rather means of transport. I would not accept a car, which I depend on for my everyday life, with such of maintenance inconvenience and expenses. But bike is just annoying as I would do far less millage and when the time come, I may even do it myself as it is not a problem it would sit disassembled for few days in my garage to do the job in turns when I have time here and there. 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2018 by rainmaker

[Trev 18,625]

13 hours ago, rainmaker said:

I think non hydraulic valve self-adjusters are nuisance for modern and non ultra high rev engine.

 

For example Honda put relatively complex and expensive DCT transmission (because customers want it) but left 7 hours maintenance job to be done on regular intervals on non stressed and low rev engine in Africa Twin to save some pennies itself and please garages (cause customers appear do not really care for this that much). And to add to the insult a not cheap service pack would include the valve check, but not the actual adjustment as it would add time and cost on top of these 7 hours as it may involve removing the camshaft. That's a lot of frame and engine disassemble for something which suppose to be routine maintenance!

 

I guess that comes true because these type of vehicles nowadays are more of a toy rather means of transport. I would not accept a car, which I depend on for my everyday life, with such of maintenance inconvenience and expenses. But bike is just annoying as I would do far less millage and when the time come, I may even do it myself as it is not a problem it would sit disassembled for few days in my garage to do the job in turns when I have time here and there. 

 

 

 

Need to take out of that well known, progressive motorcycle company that is Enfield, hydraulic valve adjustment on my 2008 efi, thank you Enfield people 

[SteveThackery 3,090]

10 minutes ago, Trev said:

 

Need to take out of that well known, progressive motorcycle company that is Enfield, hydraulic valve adjustment on my 2008 efi, thank you Enfield people 

 

Except they don't work.  I believe you've got one, as I have.  NEVER have I heard such a racket from the valve gear on an Enfield!!  

 

OK, they never need adjusting.  But the NOISE is horrible.  My previous Bullets - with solid lifters - were far quieter.  Not silent, of course, but not as noisy as my current one.

 

It's not just me: look on the forums.  Loads of people say the valve gear is the noisiest they've heard.  I can't work out what they've done wrong: hydraulic lifters should be, to all intents and purposes, silent.  What engineering genius managed to make hydraulic lifters generate more noise that their solid predecessors?

[embee 7,288]

One very significant factor for hydraulic lash adjusters (HLA) of any type is oil aeration. In most car engines this is reasonably easily managed.

Does the Enfield use a dry sump and scavenge pump? If so this could well be a major issue with getting the engineering right. Scavenge pump capacities are always significantly bigger than the supply pump (in order that it can guarantee to keep the sump emty), and consequently they always take a lot of gas (crankcase contents mainly blowby gas) in with the scavenged oil, almost by definition generating aeration. The de-aeration then depends on how long it spend in the tank before being drawn off for the supply pump. The generally accepted absolute maximum tolerable aeration level is around 5%, you usually try to be well below that.

HLAs invariably work better with thin hot oil too, it improves the filling function and speeds up de-aeration.

Getting HLAs to work correctly is not that difficult if designed, developed and tested properly. The favoured arrangement for many car engines these days is the roller finger follower with a hydraulic pedestal. This arrangement gives low inertia, low friction, relatively high stiffness and the hydraulic element is stationary.

Edited May 27, 2018 by embee

[fred_jb 10,265]

Interesting.  Maybe it would be possibly to devise a hydraulic system that had its own oil supply, optimised for the job.

[Trev 18,625]

1 hour ago, SteveThackery said:

 

Except they don't work.  I believe you've got one, as I have.  NEVER have I heard such a racket from the valve gear on an Enfield!!  

 

OK, they never need adjusting.  But the NOISE is horrible.  My previous Bullets - with solid lifters - were far quieter.  Not silent, of course, but not as noisy as my current one.

 

It's not just me: look on the forums.  Loads of people say the valve gear is the noisiest they've heard.  I can't work out what they've done wrong: hydraulic lifters should be, to all intents and purposes, silent.  What engineering genius managed to make hydraulic lifters generate more noise that their solid predecessors?

 

 I agree, they do make a racket. particularly on start up but perhaps specially engineered to be that noisy to add to the character? 

[embee 7,288]

 

10 minutes ago, fred_jb said:

Interesting.  Maybe it would be possibly to devise a hydraulic system that had its own oil supply, optimised for the job.

Not necessary if done properly. It's usually better to have a continual change of supply to help flush out any debris/contamination/degradation. I've seen examples of bearings with insufficient through-flow or restricted venting which trap debris and cause excessive wear. HLAs work fine when engineered properly, they've been developed over many years now.

[fred_jb 10,265]

23 minutes ago, embee said:

 

Not necessary if done properly. It's usually better to have a continual change of supply to help flush out any debris/contamination/degradation. I've seen examples of bearings with insufficient through-flow or restricted venting which trap debris and cause excessive wear. HLAs work fine when engineered properly, they've been developed over many years now.

I didn't necessarily mean that the oil supply would be completely separate to the engine, just have its own circuit and small reservoir.  I would expect any losses from the circuit to be topped up from the engine oil so presumably there would be no more or less of a turnover of oil supply to these components than is currently the case?  I think I've seen performance at high revs given as a reason why hydraulic adjusters are not used in bike engines, so wondered if a separate supply might help with this?

 

With bikes, inaccessibility is a reason for high servicing costs when valve clearances need to checked/adjusted so you would think a self adjusting system would be highly desirable.

 

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by fred_jb

[embee 7,288]

The oil galleries supplying the HLAs are usually those supplying the camshaft bearings with the HLA offset so they get a supply which basically almost stalls into the HLA reservoir. The supply for the HLAs should normally come from the bottom of the oil gallery to help avoid unnecessary gas going into the reservoir.

 

For a roller follower pedestal type HLA the lubrication of the ball end support pedestal is a drilling up from the oil reservoir inside the HLA. The high pressure chamber is self-filling, it doesn't use the supply pressure as such. As the HLA leaks down due to normal leakage between the plunger and body it expands when the cam is on the base circle and the check valve allows oil from the reservoir into the working chamber. It is necessary to design in leakage from the working chamber so that it doesn't "jack-up", it always has to leak down and get replenished in order to maintain control and proper valve seating loads.

 

 

Hydraulic bucket tappets can be a little more troublesome at high speed because they are going up and down with an intermittent oil supply, but they can still work at reasonably high speeds. The reasons they are not used as much these days is the desire to use a roller follower to reduce friction, plus the pedestal type do make the control somewhat easier. The roller finger follower and hydraulic pedestal would be my choice, they can work at high speeds no problems. The NC is part way there with the roller follower rocker system. I guess the economics don't work for the typical bike engine, the valve check at service intervals isn't a deal breaker and keeps the engine cost down. It's a case of pragmatism.

 

Interestingly Toyota were using a mechanical bucket tappet, but they had the confidence to use a graded height tappet with no loose shim, and there's no service check scheduled for them. My Yaris has done nearly 90k miles with no valve clearance checks.

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by embee

[larryblag 14,236]

On 26/05/2018 at 20:26, Tex said:

 

Yes matey. I know it was about the first year models. I hadn’t realised Honda had dropped the 1st valve check so quickly, that’s all. Possibly the weight of public opinion forced their hand? As in, sales dropping because of perceived high service costs. 

A better approach (until they gained the necessary confidence in the new motor) might have been to subsidise the labour cost to dealers rather than pass this on directly. The "spokesman" in the article there didn't really convince me with his argument. If it's gotta be done though, I'd cough up, but I really do worry about the honesty of some dealers who may be tempted to just wheel the bike in, change oil and filter, do the other first service items then just leave it sat in the workshop for an appropriate time. Appealing to their consciences by simply "thinking" it's unnecessary. 

[Newoldbiker 45]

For what it's worth I have a 2013 700s that's done 33K miles and haven't checked the valves.  It runs fine.  I change the oil etc every year myself and the filters on schedule and the coolant and brake fluid.  Adjust and clean the chain 3 times a year.  It gets used every school day (I'm a teacher) rain or shine.  Just saying.

[Slowboy 20,446]

Also for what it's worth, the CRF250 gets the valves checked at 16,000 and the oil and filters changed every 8,000. By the time the valve checks are needed, it'll be me doing it.

I used to do my own on the NC, dead easy and we're still in spec (but a little tight) after 24,000 miles.

Couple of hours work.

[baben 11,703]

 

Apparently the new CRF 450 L will have a 20,000 mile valve check.