Integra - surge shifting up from odd to even gears

[destructivedave 24]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

(This forum came in handy for me when my Integra suffered the pin shift break 20,000 miles ago, but I now have a new fault that seems less common.)

 

Issue

When riding, as the gearbox changes up from the odd to even gears, there's a surge. Best way to describe it: it's as if the throttle doesn't cut out as the bike changes gears. The gearbox reset doesn't seem to work as it gets through its cycle but doesn't go through the final stage.

It's currently with a Honda dealer who have involved Honda Technical and they've given them the usual list of things to look into (variations on switch off/switch back on again, I would imagine).

 

Background

Late registered 2012 model, with 44,000 miles on the clock. Owned from new - never been dropped, drive it very conservatively (always in 'D' mode) and do 3-400 miles most weeks.

When the pin shifter went, Honda replaced under warranty: ECU and both clutch packs (as well as the pin shifter (finally), that I diagnosed from reading this forum). All this work was carried out at 24,000 miles. New chain and sprocket less than 1,000 miles ago. Bike had been serviced every 8,000 miles until this service which was done at 12,000 miles.

I need transport to get to work, so that's a factor I need to consider as well as the fact that I don't have time to fix it myself.

 

Possible faults/solutions

I've read that each clutch has its own Engine Oil Pressure (EOP) sensor and the failure of this item in another bike caused some shifting issues.

I've also seen that each input shaft also has a sensor that can fail, so this could be another avenue to try.

Finally, there seem to be different dct reset sequences between the early bikes and others. Could the issue be cleared as simply as getting a successful dct reset?

 

Honda technical view

In time honoured tradition, they suggest it could be the ECU (that they only changed 20,000 miles ago), but that's the thick end of £1,400 and no guarantee. To test the other potential issues (sensors etc.) could be quite expensive as well and again no guarantee that the work will fix the issue.

 

My thoughts

The surging is annoying and potentially dangerous and slow speed control was becoming a little hazardous as the bike occasionally became less responsive to throttle inputs (almost as if the clutch was slipping) - not great when you're commuting in London traffic.

 

Next steps?

Do I

1) collect the bike from the dealer, pay for the service and take it somewhere else;

2) get the dealer to strip down the bike to fault find (quoted 3hrs and that's before new parts are added in)

3) just chop it in, not throw good money after bad, take a hit and get a manual S 750?

 

Thanks in advance and apologies for the long post.

David

 

 

[embee 7,288]

Two things spring to mind.

First, when was the last oil change and what oil was used? Providing it was a suitable JASO-MA2 oil the clutches should work with it, if for some reason it had a non-bike specific oil put in it then slipping could be a result. Also, was the DCT filter changed at the same time and has it always been changed as per the schedule? If it was partially clogged or even the paper element collapsed it could potentially cause issues.

 

Second, the "DCT reset" is more strictly called the "clutch initialisation procedure" which I would think was fundamental to the operation of the system, and should have been done when the ECU and clutches were changed. Any reason for the procedure failing is going to be pretty significant to the operation of the clutches during shifts.

The engine must be up to temperature, if not it will display a small "L" or a big "L" depending on how low the temperature is.

Are you certain the correct procedure is being used? The 700 procedure must leave the throttle untouched throughout, the later version opens the throttle. If it won't perform an initialisation successfully it seems a bit pointless going on to other things until that is sorted.

 

I would guess the oil pressure sensors could be checked simply by swapping the two which do the two clutch pressures and if the fault stays with the same set if ratios (odd or even) then it's not the sensors. If it swaps with the sensor then that's likely the problem. (3 sensors do supply pressure, clutch 1 and clutch 2). Obviously check the connectors, always a suspect in these issues but probably not in this case. Any real faults with sensors, either pressure, speed or temperature, would likely cause a DCT fault flag to be displayed. I'm assuming you don't get any fault codes flagged?

 

[destructivedave 24]

Good morning Embee - thanks for your detailed response. I've cut out the questions you've posed for ease, but have noted the other advice which suggests the first thing that needs to be addressed is the clutch initialisation procedure (unless there are fault codes showing that might indicate other faults, but I'm not aware of any).

 

when was the last oil change and what oil was used?

Oil last changed at 32,000 miles at a Honda dealer so assuming it was the correct oil. The bike behaved as expected for 11,500 miles since the last service so this might rule this out.

 

Also, was the DCT filter changed at the same time and has it always been changed as per the schedule?

Filter cartridge (15410MCJ505) changed every 8,000 as part of regular service. My initial thinking (and hope) was that being 50% over the service interval, it might have been something simple like this - failure of a service part.

 

Second, the "DCT reset" is more strictly called the "clutch initialisation procedure" which I would think was fundamental to the operation of the system, and should have been done when the ECU and clutches were changed.

It was completed at that stage, but the previous dealer also had difficulty in completing the procedure (though only took a day of fiddling that time, this time it's been over a week).

 

Are you certain the correct procedure is being used?

I'm hoping that it is being carried out correctly, but I'm not overly confident based on previous dealings with Honda dealers/Honda technical. Part of my thinking is to collect the bike and try to reset it myself, using the knowledge imparted through this forum. Alternatively I can print off the sequence and get them to run it whilst I'm there. Honda seemed to have taken the view that because it won't synch, an ECU change is required whereas I'm not confident that it is being completed correctly.

 

Any real faults with sensors, either pressure, speed or temperature, would likely cause a DCT fault flag to be displayed. I'm assuming you don't get any fault codes flagged?

The dealer hasn't said that any fault codes are being thrown up so this course of action might be a red herring.

 

Thanks again.

[embee 7,288]

The filter you list is the main engine oil filter. The one  was referring to is the small one which serves the DCT solenoids, item 6 here

https://www.bike-parts-honda.com/honda-motorcycle/700-SCOOTER/INTEGRA/2012/NC700DC/Engine/RIGHT-CRANKCASE-COVER/60982/E_05/1/14192

11k miles is a bit much for an oil change, certainly before condemning anything else it would be wise to do an oil change. It probably isn't the issue, but oil changes are done for a reason. The DCT filter is a pain to get to on an Integra (bodywork panels need to come off) and it wouldn't surprise me if some dealers short cut this and don't bother, not accusing anyone of anything of course.

It'd certainly be worth you trying to do the initialisation procedure yourself, it costs nothing and all you have to do is follow the procedure to the letter. I have had it fail to complete once, in which case the manual says just turn off and start again. If it won't do it then that at least points to some sort of problem.

[destructivedave 24]

Thanks for the link.

 

Looking through my records, part 15412MGSD21 (part 6 from that schematic) was changed as follows:

16,000 miles

24,000 miles

 

It was booked into the dealer for an 8k service, which they've completed, so oil will have been changed. The bag of service items they had attached to the job sheet had a filter with an appearance like that of no. 6, so hopefully that's been changed but will give them a call, just so that can be eliminated.

 

It does seem as if the main issue is that it won't reset, for whatever reason. Best case scenario is they aren't completing the process exactly as required, worst case is.... (well PGM-FI, if Honda technical is to be believed).

 

I have to say, the dealer has been really good at updating me with progress and I'm still using their loan bike and they've given me time to consider my next course of action.

 

My disappointment is at the efforts of Honda technical whose standard answer is to 'change' parts until fault is cured, which for a bike that is a tool to get me to/from work as economically as possible, leads to a direct conflict. I have little confidence currently that Honda technical are actually expert in knowing what is going on with the dct (they couldn't even diagnose the pin shifter issue, even when it became a well established issue). I was expecting to get at least 100,000 miles out of this bike, but Honda seem to think two PGM-FI units in 44,000 is acceptable.

 

Shame as the dct when working is really good, but starting to rue not going for something simpler (like a manual), as when things go wrong, they are easier to diagnose/cheaper to fix.

[embee 7,288]

Electronic ECUs are extremely reliable these days. To be honest that would be right at the bottom of my list of likely things.

Just to clarify, do you get anything other than the correct display in the gear indicator? If it detects some sort of problem you get a straight bar across the display (I think). 

Does it do the shifts correctly all the time (i.e. selects the next gear properly every time), but just the clutch engagement is suspect?

If it isn't displaying any fault and it selects the gears then it's simply a clutch or pressure control issue.

Have you actually tried using the manual mode to force changes when you want them? I'd be inclined to ride it in MT for a while doing the shifts yourself to see if you can narrow down the circumstances when the fault shows up etc. It might be helpful in diagnosing a cause.

 

I've had a couple of electrical issues with mine, mainly down to tarnishing of pins in connectors. Connections are always the biggest cause of problems in these sort of systems. I recommend as a matter of course getting to as many connectors as possible, take them apart, spray with contact cleaner, apply suitable protection (ACF50 etc) and work them in/out a few times to clean the pins. I suspect this isn't your issue, but worth doing on at least the relevant items, the oil pressure sensors, the speed sensors etc. 

The other one worth checking is the main earthing point behind the left side panel just about level with the rear of the underseat cubby box. There are about 10 earth wires arriving here. Undo the bolt, clean each terminal and refit with ACF50 or similar.

Also always check battery terminals are tight, simple thing I know but you'd be surprised ………………...

[SteveThackery 3,090]

14 hours ago, destructivedave said:

 

It was completed at that stage, but the previous dealer also had difficulty in completing the procedure (though only took a day of fiddling that time, this time it's been over a week).

 

It takes me two minutes to do the clutch initialisation procedure on mine.  Any dealer who has "difficulty" in completing the procedure is dangerously incompetent and doesn't deserve your custom.

 

14 hours ago, destructivedave said:

Honda seemed to have taken the view that because it won't synch, an ECU change is required whereas I'm not confident that it is being completed correctly.

 

They clearly haven't got a f**king clue.  It really bothers me that their idea of fault diagnosis is to throw new parts at it until the fault goes away.  Clearly no real understanding of how the system works, or how to diagnose it.

 

14 hours ago, destructivedave said:

 

Any real faults with sensors, either pressure, speed or temperature, would likely cause a DCT fault flag to be displayed. I'm assuming you don't get any fault codes flagged?

The dealer hasn't said that any fault codes are being thrown up so this course of action might be a red herring.

 

 

If it is "surging", I would say it's because there is a delay in the even clutch engagement, such that the engine revs have time to rise before the clutch bites, thus causing the surge.

 

Mine does it on all gears when cold, and gradually improves until the change was smooth at normal operating temperature.  The trouble is that a sluggish clutch action could be mechanical (something sticking or too tight), hydraulic (a partial blockage in a control line, or an internal leak), or electrical (see embee's comments above), or electronic (the ECU or an out-of-spec sensor).

 

Remember that sensors don't always bring up a fault code when they are faulty - usually only if they are completely failed.  A temperature or pressure sensor that reports a "believable", but offset, reading won't usually be diagnosed.

 

Take embee's advice about swapping the pressure sensors round.  Also, perform the clutch initialisation procedure yourself - you really don't need a grease monkey to do it for you.  If it is still faulty, and troublesome enough, then it probably needs a fuller investigation by a Honda specialist who is familiar with the DCT (i.e. probably not a Honda dealer).

[EastSussexPete 168]

 

On 19/07/2018 at 00:38, destructivedave said:

Owned from new - never been dropped, drive it very conservatively (always in 'D' mode)

You can be 'too' kind to an engine. A well know motor journalist, the best run in engines where in a rental cars. Sometimes driven hard, sometimes soft. 

[destructivedave 24]

Thanks for all your responses - tried to answer each point in turn.

 

On 20/07/2018 at 11:24, embee said:

Just to clarify, do you get anything other than the correct display in the gear indicator? If it detects some sort of problem you get a straight bar across the display (I think). 

Not had the dreaded straight bar across the display (know it well from when the shift pin went) for this fault.

 

On 20/07/2018 at 11:24, embee said:

Does it do the shifts correctly all the time (i.e. selects the next gear properly every time), but just the clutch engagement is suspect?

It was quite a recent fault prior to going in for its service (think it was four commutes) and shifted correctly, although at slower speeds it seemed to hold the gear longer (but not like it holds it in S Mode - more as if the clutch was slipping).

 

On 20/07/2018 at 11:24, embee said:

Have you actually tried using the manual mode to force changes when you want them? I'd be inclined to ride it in MT for a while doing the shifts yourself to see if you can narrow down the circumstances when the fault shows up etc. It might be helpful in diagnosing a cause.

Yes - one of the first things I did, but sadly the same fault occurred in the same circumstances.

 

On 20/07/2018 at 11:24, embee said:

I've had a couple of electrical issues with mine, mainly down to tarnishing of pins in connectors. Connections are always the biggest cause of problems in these sort of systems. I recommend as a matter of course getting to as many connectors as possible, take them apart, spray with contact cleaner, apply suitable protection (ACF50 etc) and work them in/out a few times to clean the pins. I suspect this isn't your issue, but worth doing on at least the relevant items, the oil pressure sensors, the speed sensors etc. 

The other one worth checking is the main earthing point behind the left side panel just about level with the rear of the underseat cubby box. There are about 10 earth wires arriving here. Undo the bolt, clean each terminal and refit with ACF50 or similar.

Also always check battery terminals are tight, simple thing I know but you'd be surprised ………………...

Thanks Embee - seems like the best course of action is to get the bike back and start going over it.

 

On 20/07/2018 at 23:43, SteveThackery said:

It takes me two minutes to do the clutch initialisation procedure on mine.  Any dealer who has "difficulty" in completing the procedure is dangerously incompetent and doesn't deserve your custom.

Thanks Steve - I do wonder sometimes about the ability of 'technicians' to work with these bikes.  I've seen on other posts that the reset procedure on earlier bikes differs and if done incorrectly, it doesn't finalise the synch (similar to what they are experiencing).

 

On 20/07/2018 at 23:43, SteveThackery said:

They clearly haven't got a f**king clue.  It really bothers me that their idea of fault diagnosis is to throw new parts at it until the fault goes away.  Clearly no real understanding of how the system works, or how to diagnose it.

Completely agree - it was frustrating enough when it was still under warranty (so cost me nothing) and the previous dealer was doing this under advice from Honda technical (which still didn't fix it, until I pointed out the 'known'* (by everyone on the internet, but not Honda) shifter pin issue on the early Integras), but now I'm paying for it it is bothersome that what is supposed to be cheap and reliable motoring, is anything but when things go wrong.

 

On 20/07/2018 at 23:43, SteveThackery said:

If it is "surging", I would say it's because there is a delay in the even clutch engagement, such that the engine revs have time to rise before the clutch bites, thus causing the surge.

This is a good analysis of the problem and is very similar to how it presents in my bike.  Really hoping that it's not a clutch issue as a clutch pack is serious money, based on when they replaced these at 24,000 (and tried to get me to pay for them, even when it didn't clear the fault - shifter pin!!)

 

On 20/07/2018 at 23:43, SteveThackery said:

Remember that sensors don't always bring up a fault code when they are faulty - usually only if they are completely failed.  A temperature or pressure sensor that reports a "believable", but offset, reading won't usually be diagnosed.

Good to know that complete reliance can't be placed in the diagnostics, so don't discount anything.

 

On 21/07/2018 at 10:44, EastSussexPete said:

You can be 'too' kind to an engine. A well know motor journalist, the best run in engines where in a rental cars. Sometimes driven hard, sometimes soft.

Might be learning this the hard way.  Sometimes think I could have bought something less practical for my London commute but a bit more lively on the fast roads out of town, sacrificing the benefits like fuel economy, when you look at what this will do the bikes residual value if I can't fix it (and the cost thereof of fixing it!!).

[Integrator 180]

Hi David.. did you get the problem Solved..?

Now mine 2012 Integra 110.000 kms.. appears to have the same problem..