Valve Clearances...how can you tell they're out?

[alhendo1 3,031]

19 minutes ago, Rocker66 said:

Where are you located?

Paisley just next to Glasgow.....

[Rocker66 34,375]

20 minutes ago, alhendo1 said:

Paisley just next to Glasgow.....

OK thanks I can’t suggest a good dealer up there as it’s well out of my area.

[Brigante7 438]

46 minutes ago, alhendo1 said:

Paisley just next to Glasgow.....

Two wheels in Edinburgh are good, but very busy, which I think is a good sign. Come on over to the dark side, come to Edinburgh, we don't bite we just talk with a posh accent, lol.

 

 

 

Brigante7.

[Rocker66 34,375]

7 minutes ago, Brigante7 said:

Two wheels in Edinburgh are good, but very busy, which I think is a good sign. Come on over to the dark side, come to Edinburgh, we don't bite we just talk with a posh accent, lol.

 

 

 

Brigante7.

Ah Edinburgh the city which according to Billy Connolly is the home of that we’ll know football team Partic Thistle Nil😂

[outrunner 4,457]

21 minutes ago, Rocker66 said:

Ah Edinburgh the city which according to Billy Connolly is the home of that we’ll know football team Partic Thistle Nil😂

Err, I think you will find that Partick Thistle is a Glasgow team.

 

Andy.

[alhendo1 3,031]

1 hour ago, Brigante7 said:

Two wheels in Edinburgh are good, but very busy, which I think is a good sign. Come on over to the dark side, come to Edinburgh, we don't bite we just talk with a posh accent, lol.

 

 

 

Brigante7.

😊 Yes I got my NC from there...I never spoke to any of the service staff there......I'll see how Victor Devines get on first....cheers.

[SteveThackery 3,090]

14 hours ago, embee said:

Bear in mind there's a big difference between what you can measure and what you can feel.

 

I've been totally consistent with that argument.  You can instrument all sorts of things and detect minute differences.  But subjective experiences are just too unreliable, and vastly more "coarse". 

 

I stick with what I said and offer a challenge: there's no way you - the rider - can feel a difference from adjusting the valve clearances, unless they are so far out you've lost compression or can hear the clatter.  I'd be very happy to conduct a single- or double-blind experiment with anyone here who believes they can feel a 0.05mm difference in valve clearance.  Let's put it to a real test.

 

There are so many people on the internet who assert rubbish about how their bike "feels smoother" after fitting a new bulb in the back light, or "accelerates better" after topping up the fork oil (I made both of these up, but you know what I mean).  It's all bullshit.  The only data that counts is instrumented, objective data.  Subjective data is so unreliable it's no use at all for making real decisions.

[Tex 36,816]

Back when engines were cursed with carburettors properly balancing them would make an appreciable difference (still does on classic bikes/cars) but other than that I agree, Steve. Nothing else on a routine service will make a haporth of difference. 

[DaveM59 1,603]

Two Wheels Edinburgh was the supplier and servicing dealer for the original owner of my Integra. Not sure how the Integra ended up in Blackpool though.

[Rocker66 34,375]

11 hours ago, outrunner said:

Err, I think you will find that Partick Thistle is a Glasgow team.

 

Andy.

My mistake but then for me there is only one football team in Glasgow worth mentioning the one that plays in Green &White. On a Saturday afternoon straight after checking the EPL results I look for their result.

[SteveThackery 3,090]

6 hours ago, Tex said:

Nothing else on a routine service will make a haporth of difference. 

 

Actually, there is one thing that's kind of half a joke and half has a point: the cheapest way to make the bike faster is to lubricate the throttle cable.  

 

One of my lecturers swears by it.  In any case, it underlines how unreliable subjective impressions are.  

[Tex 36,816]

Ha! My old workshop foreman impressed upon me the need to clean a car’s windscreen on completion of a service - made them faster too, apparently.  

[temp 359]

My Hondas have never had the valve clearances checked since I had them, because:

1. I don't want to pay loads of money to someone who may or not do the job properly🤔🤑;

2. I'm likely to make things worse if I do it myself (though my old Ladas survived my attentions until they met the scrapyard😬);

3. I haven't notice any loss of performance, but we may be aging at a similar rate😕;

4. They are Hondas😀.

[alhendo1 3,031]

I'd planned on keeping this bike for 2 or 3 years so I'll probably never do the valve clearances either....but you never can tell....that being said....I can possibly see a T100 in the future....I may have missed a trick there. ...but I'm not taking a serious financial hit just yet😅

If the vibration thing cant/won't be sorted I'll take mitigating action and make it bearable. ...bar brace etc...I really like the CB....

Edited July 28, 2018 by alhendo1

[Brigante7 438]

15 hours ago, DaveM59 said:

Two Wheels Edinburgh was the supplier and servicing dealer for the original owner of my Integra. Not sure how the Integra ended up in Blackpool though.

My 750X came from Northwest Honda.

 

 

 

Brigante7.

[Defender 3,834]

On 27/07/2018 at 22:04, rjp996 said:

I'm pondering if to check my values as it's due a service as turned 57k, or leave until the next as I've been doing the past 3 years. 

Last time I adjusted valves was on my lawn tractor, it having no TDC mark I used a chopstick (as you do) down the plug hole, snapped it off and ended up having to take the head off to retrieve the bits....

 

... maybe leave it again till the next service. ;-)

Why do you think the call chop sticks?

Which kind of reminds me of the dipstick on my 'slant 4' 2.3 SOHC Vauxhall engine, it had separate air filters for the carbs, rather than the old combined airbox filter housing, so the cam cover breather had nowhere to vent to, i was contemplating what to do about it and with the engine running blanked it off, all ways well for a few seconds when there was bang and the dipstick went skywards at a rate of knots, I recovered it from the middle of the front garden, with a rather bemused look on my face according to my Father!

[gonzo 2,211]

On 7/27/2018 at 22:04, rjp996 said:

I'm pondering if to check my values as it's due a service as turned 57k, or leave until the next as I've been doing the past 3 years. 

Last time I adjusted valves was on my lawn tractor, it having no TDC mark I used a chopstick (as you do) down the plug hole, snapped it off and ended up having to take the head off to retrieve the bits....

 

... maybe leave it again till the next service. ;-)

Your not alone with that one  a builder i know passed his test about 10 years ago,went out and bought an 1100 virago, despite me telling him to stick with a 250 for a year or two. He decided to check the oil and couldn't find the DIPSTICK (its a glass window on this bike) So he picked up a brittle stick and shoved it in the filler hole and dropped it in the sump . !!

[Rocker66 34,375]

Years ago we were all waiting in the Sunshine Cafe for a friend called Tony to arrive on his Velo. When he didn’t arrive we went to his home. When we got there we saw him with the top end off his engine and a garden hose pouring water into the crankcase. Apparently when working on the engine he had used the old trick of putting rag into the mouth of the crankcase to prevent anything falling in. In his rush to finish the rebuild he forgot to remove all the rag resulting small bits of material circulating the engine when it was started up. He was trying to flush it out. To this day he has not been allowed to forget it. If only we had  had phone cameras and YouTube in those days😀😀

[larryblag 14,236]

On 7/26/2018 at 16:40, Andy m said:

The Haynes book of many lies and over simplifications says you slide the cams aside having taken off the end caps.

 

It also says assembly is the reverse of disassembly etc.

 

Andy

This might be why I have a number of self-sealy zip bags (all carefully labelled) containing bits left over...

[Trev 18,569]

Did the right hand side of my Guzzi V7 last night.

 

Started by trying to make sense of the fair bit of conflicting info out there (as usual) on what the gaps might be, I just went with the manual in the end although, apparently that's not always best with Guzzis? Propped bike on side stand and piece of wood and clicked it into top gear and removed spark plugs so I could find top of compression stroke with a paper straw. Rocker cover came off nae problem, both inlet and exhaust felt a wee bit tight, exhaust a bit more so than the inlet. After twenty minutes of loosening and retightening the buggers I've ended up with both a tiny bit less tight I think, maybe, just about, not blinkin worth it!

 

All back to together, both plugs in, out of gear and it fired up fine and sounded the same as it did before, no surpise. Tonight I'll check the left hand side but, unless significantly out, I won't faff about adjsutung but will leave as is.

 

Unlike me, please remember the manual states 'valve clearance check' not 'valve clearance adjust' for a reason, they very likely won't need adjusting so don't waste time and effort trying to improve the tolerance by half a gnats wotsit 

[Andy m 23,473]

You need one of these

 

 

Pooratrek do them in kit form for a few quid 😗😗😚🤔, you just need to supply the hammer and do the drilling.

 

So long as they have a gap when closed and don't clatter when running they'll be fine. Adjusting to the nearest micron/gnats cock hair wears the adjusters more than just leaving them for another 10000 miles.

 

Andy

Edited July 31, 2018 by Andy m

[SteveThackery 3,090]

4 hours ago, Trev said:

Unlike me, please remember the manual states 'valve clearance check' not 'valve clearance adjust' for a reason, they very likely won't need adjusting so don't waste time and effort trying to improve the tolerance by half a gnats wotsit 

 

Valve clearances (in fact all engineering dimensions) are always quoted with a tolerance, or as a range.  When checking the valve clearances, if a feeler of the smaller dimension passes freely, and a feeler of the larger dimension either won't pass or passes stiffly, the clearances are fine.  All this stuff about trying to get a sliding fit for a feeler of the "nominal" dimension is largely a waste of time, although some people think setting the gap as close to nominal as possible will give the longest time before adjustment is needed.

 

In reality it depends on the engine.  Some recess the valves over time, so the gaps gradually get smaller.  Others wear the valve train (especially old pushrod engines) so the gaps get bigger.  Knowing the engine might inform you as to whether to adjust towards the upper or lower end of the clearance range.

[Trev 18,569]

16 minutes ago, SteveThackery said:

 

Valve clearances (in fact all engineering dimensions) are always quoted with a tolerance, or as a range.  When checking the valve clearances, if a feeler of the smaller dimension passes freely, and a feeler of the larger dimension either won't pass or passes stiffly, the clearances are fine. 

 

 

 I thought odd that the Guzzi manual only has one specific measurement for each. I checked the manual for the last bike I did valve clearnaces on, SUzuki GSXR1100, and that tolerances as expected. I need to do the Griso somewhen so will try to make sure I have correct info on tolerances for that before I start.

[baben 11,698]

On 7/28/2018 at 07:07, Tex said:

Back when engines were cursed with carburettors properly balancing them would make an appreciable difference (still does on classic bikes/cars) but other than that I agree, Steve. Nothing else on a routine service will make a haporth of difference. 

Could this be an issue with injectors on a twin? I ask in utter ignorance.

[Andy m 23,473]

The Guzzi has a single injector in this incarnation so balance issues would only be caused by leaks. When they went to FI they initially had two which was almost as bad a carbs.

 

Andy