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NC750X 2016 vs Crossrunner 2018 vs BMW F800GT 2014

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arengle
2 hours ago, Tex said:

 

With respect - that’s utter tosh. A load of baseless propaganda put out by chain companies. 

I am not so sure, I did read an article a decade ago and they did put the driveshaft at over 30% losses, I think that is exaggerated but comparing engine power with measured wheel power the losses looks to be around 15% for longitudinal mounted engines (crankshaft) like R1200 or guzzi, and going over 20-25% for traversal mounted engines.

Apparently this is the reason why R1200 and guzzi do use driveshaft, because of the way the engine is mount, using a chain drive they will have similar losses.

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fred_jb
1 hour ago, embee said:

A typical 90deg spiral bevel gear pair (as used on all shaft drive bikes I've ever seen) is around 98% efficient, so allowing for a bit of oil churning and 2 gear pairs on a transverse engine that's somewhere round 5% loss, very similar to a typical chain in real world use. As Tex says, numbers like 15-30% losses are not true, if it was the shaft system would be glowing red hot.

 

 

Never noticed any heat from the shaft drive on my GS.  Also, as the boxer engine has a longitudinal crank not a transverse one I assume it only has one 90 degree gear pair, so may even be more efficient than a chain!  😁

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Tex
1 hour ago, arengle said:

I am not so sure, I did read an article a decade ago and they did put the driveshaft at over 30% losses, I think that is exaggerated but comparing engine power with measured wheel power the losses looks to be around 15% for longitudinal mounted engines (crankshaft) like R1200 or guzzi, and going over 20-25% for traversal mounted engines.

Apparently this is the reason why R1200 and guzzi do use driveshaft, because of the way the engine is mount, using a chain drive they will have similar losses.

 

If it makes you happy to believe that stuff, then be my guest. :) 

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arengle
15 minutes ago, Tex said:

 

If it makes you happy to believe that stuff, then be my guest. :) 

if I will not believe this, tomorrow I will get a R1200GS ... :)

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larryblag
6 hours ago, Rocker66 said:

Sue loved the 3 CBF1000s that she owned. I really enjoyed mine and only sold it as I couldn't move it around following my accident and needed something smaller and lighter. Mine had full Honda luggage and lowers which apart from being chain drive made it an ideal touring bike for me.

I looked at one before we plumped for the NC. In fact that's the bike we went to see. A most underrated bike the CBF. But it felt big and heavy for this shortarse Harley-loving dwarf (see alternate thread). I popped off it and straight onto the little NC that Kelly was pointed at. It was like coming home. 

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Andy m
9 hours ago, Tex said:

Do manufacturers read forums? 

In short no. 

 

Go on ADVRider and you will find the BMW GS is both a super light weight ultra reliable piece of well thought out Teutonic design and a lardy POS with dodgy drive splines and indicators designed for people with three thumbs. The former just bought one and are enjoying going to Starbucks to read the Touratech catalogue with the mates who are going RTW with them in a few years. The later got bored of going to Starbucks and bought a CRF250 because when they go RTW in a few (more) years, it'll be like flying with Dougie Lampkin. 

 

Marketing call it aspiration and buyers remorse, normal people call it b*****s.

 

Ask round the bike show who'd buy an under 170 kilo, shaft drive tourer and people say its a great idea. Make one and they buy Ducatis instead because there was an advert with an actress with big tits. 

 

If Honda understood this fashion market they wouldn't make dozens of models like they have to. Guzzi made the Flying Fortress because they interviewed cruiser riders who never mentioned Batman. 

 

Shaft drive to me is just weight and saving up the maintenance for one big hit. I'm not bothered either way and chain is usually cheaper.

 

Andy 

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Tex

Oh! Andy! You’re so ‘Money Supermarket’.. :D 

 

These days I am less bothered by chains than I used to be. Sunny (mostly! ;) ) day toys don’t need anything better. 

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Steveb2418
19 minutes ago, Andy m said:

In short no. 

 

Go on ADVRider and you will find the BMW GS is both a super light weight ultra reliable piece of well thought out Teutonic design and a lardy POS with dodgy drive splines and indicators designed for people with three thumbs. The former just bought one and are enjoying going to Starbucks to read the Touratech catalogue with the mates who are going RTW with them in a few years. The later got bored of going to Starbucks and bought a CRF250 because when they go RTW in a few (more) years, it'll be like flying with Dougie Lampkin. 

 

Marketing call it aspiration and buyers remorse, normal people call it b*****s.

 

Ask round the bike show who'd buy an under 170 kilo, shaft drive tourer and people say its a great idea. Make one and they buy Ducatis instead because there was an advert with an actress with big tits. 

 

If Honda understood this fashion market they wouldn't make dozens of models like they have to. Guzzi made the Flying Fortress because they interviewed cruiser riders who never mentioned Batman. 

 

Shaft drive to me is just weight and saving up the maintenance for one big hit. I'm not bothered either way and chain is usually cheaper.

 

Andy 

Just like McDonalds “I’m loving it “    Do you have a You Tube channel ? :-) 

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larryblag
10 hours ago, klrman said:

 

Eloquently put Tex, i totally agree. My long held view is that the VFR, and particularly the engine, in all its developments post chain driven cams, is the best bike ever made, bar none.

 

Disagree. 

The best VFR800 was the pre vtec (fuel injected) gear driven FIX model. The early VTEC was not good. Ironically when Honda bought out the first Cross Runner they actually (finally) perfected the VTEC power notch - even though they would never admit to it being an issue. Magically and thankfully the motor also found its way into the sports version and Honda - finally had a good pair of bikes. 

The VFR800FIX was quite simply the finest motorcycle ever made. 

 

 

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Tex
2 minutes ago, larryblag said:

 

The VFR800FIX was quite simply the finest motorcycle ever made. 

 

 

Er, excuse me? Everyone knows that was/is the RC30.. ;) 

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larryblag
Posted (edited)

It's what I meant lol :hug:

RC46 had real cams though - not ones cast in Cadbury milk chocolate :ahappy:

Edited by larryblag

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Tex
Just now, larryblag said:

It's what I meant lol :hug:

 

:niceone::niceone:

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Bart Stilgo

These threads do my head in. (in a good way :ahappy:)

We started off with Motorcycles and we've ended up with Chocolate ! :sunny:

With a detour or two to get there via marketing, engineering, opinions and bucket load of experience

It's keeping me entertained anyway.

But it sounds from Rockers posts that I'm too much of a plodder to get the best from the Mk2 VFR

 

A question (to keep things moving but in a different direction, of course)

1200 VFR DCT.  How does the DCT handle the way in which V-Tech works.

Could DCT work on the VFR800?

 

I think Honda may evolve the AT into something else

 

Keep up the good work :cheers:

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Ciaran1602

I think my reticence with chains is lack of understanding what to do with them. Never tightened one, wouldn't have the first clue how. I can't even put together a basic IKEA storage unit without f***ing it up. Probably should learn if I'm honest but I've never been able to get something just from videos or instructions!

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Spindizzy
10 minutes ago, Ciaran1602 said:

I think my reticence with chains is lack of understanding what to do with them. Never tightened one, wouldn't have the first clue how. I can't even put together a basic IKEA storage unit without f***ing it up. Probably should learn if I'm honest but I've never been able to get something just from videos or instructions!

With IKEA you just need the right tools. SWMBO tells me that's a potato peeler and stiletto.

 

Chains, just get stuck in. 

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wpbrown
1 hour ago, Tex said:

These days I am less bothered by chains than I used to be. Sunny (mostly! ;) ) day toys don’t need anything better. 

My only concern was going back to chain drive when I sold the shaft driven Deauville to buy my CBF1000. But the CBF's previous owner very kindly installed a Scottoiler which I am very pleased with.

It's the Scottoiler vSystem which uses the engine vacuum to draw oil down the tube whilst the engine is running. Thus I learnt the hard way not to leave the bike idling with the engine running! :cry:

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larryblag
1 hour ago, Andy m said:

In short no. 

 

Go on ADVRider and you will find the BMW GS is both a super light weight ultra reliable piece of well thought out Teutonic design and a lardy POS with dodgy drive splines and indicators designed for people with three thumbs. The former just bought one and are enjoying going to Starbucks to read the Touratech catalogue with the mates who are going RTW with them in a few years. The later got bored of going to Starbucks and bought a CRF250 because when they go RTW in a few (more) years, it'll be like flying with Dougie Lampkin. 

 

Marketing call it aspiration and buyers remorse, normal people call it b*****s.

 

Ask round the bike show who'd buy an under 170 kilo, shaft drive tourer and people say its a great idea. Make one and they buy Ducatis instead because there was an advert with an actress with big tits. 

 

If Honda understood this fashion market they wouldn't make dozens of models like they have to. Guzzi made the Flying Fortress because they interviewed cruiser riders who never mentioned Batman. 

 

Shaft drive to me is just weight and saving up the maintenance for one big hit. I'm not bothered either way and chain is usually cheaper.

 

Andy 

Or a belt? 

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larryblag
1 hour ago, Steveb2418 said:

Just like McDonalds “I’m loving it “    Do you have a You Tube channel ? :-) 

Some of us do :D

 

 

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Spindizzy
1 minute ago, larryblag said:

Or a belt? 

 

Can't beat a bit of belt.

 

Though TBH if manufacturers went back to properly enclosing chains we could occasionally spray some goop on them and mostly forget about it. But they dont look cool, especially to the discerning Power Ranger.

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machinman
31 minutes ago, Bart Stilgo said:

These threads do my head in. (in a good way :ahappy:)

We started off with Motorcycles and we've ended up with Chocolate ! :sunny:

With a detour or two to get there via marketing, engineering, opinions and bucket load of experience

It's keeping me entertained anyway.

But it sounds from Rockers posts that I'm too much of a plodder to get the best from the Mk2 VFR

 

A question (to keep things moving but in a different direction, of course)

1200 VFR DCT.  How does the DCT handle the way in which V-Tech works.

Could DCT work on the VFR800?

 

I think Honda may evolve the AT into something else

 

Keep up the good work :cheers:

I dont think the 1200 has v-tech, its makes massive power without it. I did hear power was limited in 1st and 2nd gears, but can't confirm as ive never owned one, would love to try one though.

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larryblag
2 minutes ago, Spindizzy said:

 

Can't beat a bit of belt.

 

Though TBH if manufacturers went back to properly enclosing chains we could occasionally spray some goop on them and mostly forget about it. But they dont look cool, especially to the discerning Power Ranger.

Bultaco Matador

Stops this 

2016-08-06_10-59-52

 

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Rocker66
3 minutes ago, machinman said:

I dont think the 1200 has v-tech, its makes massive power without it. I did hear power was limited in 1st and 2nd gears, but can't confirm as ive never owned one, would love to try one though.

You are quite correct it’s only the 800 that has it.

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larryblag
23 hours ago, Rocker66 said:

Everyone I have spoken to that has ridden both Mk1 and Mk2 versions say that the latter is much smoother in the way it kicks. Certainly both the demonstrator I had and mine do it in exactly the same way. The whole point of V-Tec is that it is tractable at slower speeds and yes it feels much the same as the NC under those circumstances however it means that quick overtakes can be made without the risk of the Rev limiter kicking in (something I really didn’t like on the NC) thus making them safer. The acceleration also gives me a buzz something the NC didn’t.

It does take a bit of practice that's true. I have hit the rev limiter a couple of times doing just that on the NC. "Barrr app app app app app!" 

Oops! 

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