2014 Honda NC700X - DCT Failure at 6,300 miles...

[Guest Tumo]

Dear all,

I am a member of the NC700 sister Forum and have experienced a serious issue with the DCT on my 2014 NC700X at only 6,300 miles. Despite 3 repair attempts and now 67 days in waiting, the dealer has been unable to fix my issue with DCT getting stuck in gear and making the bike inoperable. They have changed battery, clutch pack, PCM module, oil & filters at great costs and I am still having trouble and need to have the bike towed back to the dealer once again. Since purchasing my bike new in 2015, I have been an unabated advocate of DCT but that recent experience is really making me reconsidering my judgement. In reading through many threads involving DCT incidents, it seems like all of them get resolved one way or another by doing a simple calibration (DDSDS button sequence) . I am just wondering if anyone here has had a more serious issue with their DCT that involved lengthy troubleshooting and several trips to the shop. I have an open case with Honda PowerSports Customer Care (US) which doesn't seem to get much traction and dealer is slow moving and unresponsive.

Take are,

See my issue message thread on the NC700 Forum here:
https://www.bad link/forum/nc...t-issue-9.html

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[DaveM59 1,603]

There is a well known problem with a worn or sheared drive pin that is easily fixed. Never had a problem with my 2012 Integra but several on here have replaced their pins either after trouble started or to prevent it. I think Lynn W makes and fits them blindfolded, he's done so many! Your dealer should know about this.

[Guest Tumo]

9 minutes ago, DaveM59 said:

There is a well known problem with a worn or sheared drive pin that is easily fixed. Never had a problem with my 2012 Integra but several on here have replaced their pins either after trouble started or to prevent it. I think Lynn W makes and fits them blindfolded, he's done so many! Your dealer should know about this.

Thanks Dave,

Shifter pin is one of the things Honda Tech Support had the dealer check.  They said pin is good....

[DaveM59 1,603]

One other thing that has happened on early models is an intermittent side stand switch. This can cause the gearbox to stick in first gear.

The thing is a gearbox can only work or not work from a mechanical aspect. It's either in a gear or in neutral. It can't be in two at once ot anything like that so although there are two clutches and the box is in effect split into even and odd gears, two cannot engage at once as there are mechanical detents. All that can happen is the 'brain' cannot read the sensors that are telling it the current state so cannot shift as required. The DCT has several sensors both on the RH end of the gearbox and on the top, each looking similar to each other but probably aren't.

It's worth checking the wiring to these for green terminals or corroded or 'nipped' looms, also the NC has a single massive collection of all the earth wires going to one central grounding bolt on the frame. Corrosion or just dirt here can effect just about any circuit so worth checking out.

Finally it is possible that the oil pressure is low, and as it is used to hydraulically move the gears worth putting a gauge on. You may have a weak pressure bypass valve.

[Guest Tumo]

Thanks for sharing.  I read about the side stand issue but doubt that is the problem.  Right now, bike is parked in front of house with 5th gear engaged showing on the LCD with stand up or down.  Engine starter not responding.   I'd assume by now the dealer would have checked all of that but they seem a bit clueless and keep replacing stuff hoping it will be the fix which is quite worrisome...

 

Take care.

[Tonyj 6,907]

Who is the dealer

[embee 7,288]

21 hours ago, Tumo said:

Thanks Dave,

Shifter pin is one of the things Honda Tech Support had the dealer check.  They said pin is good....

Are you sure? They have to dismantle the engine side cover to get to it, you can't check it any other way. Did they do this? If going in there they would have been mad not to change it anyway since it is a known issue (or is that another denied issue?).

It should be easy enough for any competent dealer (well, that opens a can of worms in itself) to determine whether the shift motor/shift shaft is moving or not, that would be a good starting point. If it isn't trying to move then there's the problem, if it is moving but the gearbox is not selecting gears, then there's the problem. One would hope they've determined that the shift motor is getting power when a gear is demanded.

[MikeBike 5,005]

22 hours ago, DaveM59 said:

I think Lynn W makes and fits them blindfolded, he's done so many! Your dealer should know about this.

As @Tumo is a new member he won't know (until now) that Lyn W is @kayz1

[DaveM59 1,603]

True Mike but I wasn't suggesting he went to Lyn for the repair , just that it was pretty common and relatively easily fixed without resorting to a main dealer. Not even sure if Tumo is in the UK. 

[MikeBike 5,005]

2 hours ago, DaveM59 said:

True Mike but I wasn't suggesting he went to Lyn for the repair , just that it was pretty common and relatively easily fixed without resorting to a main dealer. Not even sure if Tumo is in the UK. 

He's from that 'other' forum and seems is in the US. You never know, Lyn might fancy a trip, shifter pin in hand...

Maybe he should change his forum name to Mr Shifter :-)

[Guest Tumo]

14 hours ago, Tonyj said:

Who is the dealer

Coleman Sports in Falls Church, VA.  I am in the US.

[Guest Tumo]

8 hours ago, embee said:

Are you sure? They have to dismantle the engine side cover to get to it, you can't check it any other way. Did they do this? If going in there they would have been mad not to change it anyway since it is a known issue (or is that another denied issue?).

It should be easy enough for any competent dealer (well, that opens a can of worms in itself) to determine whether the shift motor/shift shaft is moving or not, that would be a good starting point. If it isn't trying to move then there's the problem, if it is moving but the gearbox is not selecting gears, then there's the problem. One would hope they've determined that the shift motor is getting power when a gear is demanded.

They changed the clutch pack on the last "repair" so, I assume that gave them easy access to the shifter pin?

I am have been quite docile so far. No yelling, no screaming, paid all repair bills... Honda wouldn't put me in touch with the District Service Manager. Had a disappointing call with my Honda Customer Care case agent today. They are pretty much dropping the ball, asking me to work with the dealer to get it fixed or see with their sales dpt if they would take my bike as a trade in for a new one. He says it's consistent with the company policy, they never deal on a case by case basis,... Dealer is unresponsive and doesn't return phone calls or emails. Just for everyone to be warned, Honda doesn't stand behind their products! Sounds like at that point, I may be better off donating it to my fellow forum members. Any advice on my next move if any?  And yes, I am in the US, supposedly, the kingdom of Customer Care!

[Tonyj 6,907]

That’s unfortunate that you are struggling with a bike and everyone stands back, when all you want is some help .

good luck anyway. Embee is a great source for info

[embee 7,288]

Hi Tumo

I felt I owed it to you to read through the 11 pages of the thread in your link. Hmmmm, not particularly encouraging. Here's just a few more thoughts, some relevant some more wild cards, but anything might lead to a solution.

 

A couple of simple things first. The engine will only start when the trans is in neutral. From what you say it sounds like it always starts fine once it has actually found N. If it can't get to N then it won't start, this is not a fault. Forget about this.

 

The clutch initialisation is only that, it's not "resetting" the DCT electronic shifting system in any way, it just allows the clutch take up to be learnt by the system which affects the pull-away take up of the clutches and the shift quality, it won't prevent or allow it to shift if there is a fault elsewhere. I'd suggest set this process aside from here on.

 

Certainly sounds like temperature of something may be a very relevant factor. I doubt it's actual engine coolant or oil temp as such, but may well be the effect of temp on some component or connection. Having said that, certainly check the connections for the oil temp sensor, which is down near where the shift motor is.

 

There are a couple of basic connections to check, first and most important the one on the back of the instrument panel can cause various issues (the panel does some processing), and the main earthing point at the front left side of the rider's seat on a frame rail behind a panel. There are about a dozen wires all arriving here for a common earth point, essential for complex electrical systems. Clean/lube/refit as appropriate. I suspect it's not these but they need to be eliminated. The instrument panel connector should normally flag a MIL fault code if it is not clean, but you never know.

 

I've been running a lithium battery for a few months now, the charging voltage is fine and stable. I suggest definitely checking the charging voltage when the engine is running, the system voltage is an absolutely fundamental aspect of any complex electrical system. Check it when first started from cold and again when it is hot after the sort of time when you get the fault happen. The MOSFET reg/rec used on the NC is very reliable, but they can fail and often these sort of faults are heat related. Again, eliminate the charging voltage. One person has reported a failed reg/rec due to corrosion on a well used bike.

 

I've had a couple of electrical issues with mine. The connector from the right side switch gear with the supply and return from the kill switch had tarnished pins which prevented it starting. Not the same as your fault but be aware that those connectors can have poor contacts. Take apart, inspect for corrosion/tarnishing, spray with aerosol contact cleaner, refit a few times to clean the contacts. Definitely check the connector onto the shift motor, it's low down right on the motor itself so potentially susceptible to road dirt etc and could possibly have a delayed heat effect as the whole unit warms up (just a possible).

 

I've also had a cooling fan relay go faulty. Not significant as such, but it's exactly the same relay as for the fuel pump (and maybe other things too?).

 

Someone had a problem with a poor connector on the engine coolant temp sensor causing idle speed issues. again, not your problem but check the temp sensor connector/wiring (it's in the thermostat housing, top of engine right side). Definitely check the sidestand switch just to eliminate it, it will prevent a gear being selected from N but I don't know what would happen if it went faulty (open circuit) when it was already in a gear, I'd expect it would kill the engine (switch off fuel pump).

 

There are 3 (identical) speed sensors in top of the gearbox case. One is vehicle speed, the other 2 are the shaft speeds for gear ratio confirmation. These should be very reliable sensors (simple magnetic pick-up coils or variable reluctance pick-ups I believe) but one owner on here had to have one replaced, can't recall the exact symptoms. Again, check connectors for any corrosion, and check the continuity between the sensor pins, I expect the workshop manual will give a typical resistance for the coil, I'd expect a few ohms. If they all measure the same then all should be well.

 

Since the fault is so fundamental, I'd also suggest taking the shift motor gearcase off to check that all the bits inside are in good condition. It only has grease in it and each of the reduction gear shafts has a pair of ball bearing races. It's just possible there could be a mechanical issue in there, I doubt it but possible and it'd be nice to eliminate it. It's a simple easy job, just needs a new paper gasket (silly money for a paper gasket, but hey ho). I just have a small niggle in my mind about being able to coax it back through the gears when stationary by rocking the bike (allows the gear selectors to move the gears in/out of engagement) so it sounds like it wants to shift but sometimes something stops it doing it.

[Guest Tumo]

Embee, wow!  That's good info.  I'll try to give this a try tomorrow.  I am not a super mechanic but that's good guidance.

 

Take care,

[pjm 6,041]

I had a similar problem with my AT. However I think this was down to a glitch being put in the system by a faulty connector in some additional led lighting I had fitted intermittently shorting to earth. I changed the wiring system to the lights and have had no problems since. Again this harks back to a faulty earth or pinched wiring in the loom breaking down. The rocking method to free the gears worked on mine at the roadside and allowed me to get home. I cannot say that it was the connector 100% but having changed it I have had no further issues. If you have fitted any electrical accessories it might be worth a look. If not back to checking the main earths etc as set out by embee.

[MikeBike 5,005]

8 hours ago, Tumo said:

They changed the clutch pack on the last "repair" so, I assume that gave them easy access to the shifter pin?

I don't know the symptoms in detail, only that you have an NC700 with a shifting gear problem which others have had and turned out to be the shifter pin,  have spent lots on other repairs without success, yet you only assume that someone might have looked at the shifter pin.

 

Wouldn't it make sense to replace it anyway to rule it out and as it's a known achilles heel of the NC700 and anyway might fail later, unless you know for sure that the later NC700's produced while the NC750's were in production got a revised shifter pin.

 

May be a good idea also in your profile to add for clarity and understanding when reading your posts

Location: USA ( or more precise)

My NC:   NC700X DCT (2014)

 

as 

Edited September 19, 2018 by MikeBike

[embee 7,288]

If the bike is showing the symptoms while standing stationary, the first thing I'd do now is get a multimeter onto the shift motor connector (may need to make up link wires to do it, but where there's a will there's a way) and find out whether it is getting sent a signal to shift or not. If it's stuck in gear and the engine not running, when you turn on the ignition it should try to select neutral, i.e. the shift motor should try to move. If it isn't getting a signal that narrows down the fault. If it is getting a signal but some mechanical issue is stopping it then that narrows down the problem. It's a fundamental step in narrowing down the solution.

According to my wiring diag there are just 2 wires onto the motor, pink/blue and yellow/blue, which makes life easy for checking. I'm assuming the polarity of the signal just reverses for up and down shifts to drive the motor opposite ways, so a meter will show either + or - 12V depending on signal direction

 

As an aside, just spotted the gearbox shaft speed sensors are 3 wire items, so probably hall-effect rather than variable reluctance (like the CKP crank sensor as shown) as I has suggested, so ignore the previous thought about checks.

 

[embee 7,288]

Just other thoughts, maybe for others to comment on?

I'm taking from what you say the gear display doesn't go into fault mode, it keeps showing gears? If this is the case it suggests it "thinks" everything is OK, which would really exclude most faults with position sensors etc as there are at least 2 methods for confirming stuff, change shaft positions and gears selected vs shaft speeds etc. If it detected a faulty sensor it would show a fault window (I'd think anyway). My guess would be it gets valid input signals, when conditions are suitable it decides to shift and sends a signal out but for some reason that doesn't result in a shift, but the signals after this has happened are all still valid so it doesn't recognise a fault as such (the system is only so smart, depending what it's been programmed to do).

 

Following on from the above post, I'd also take the shift motor off (very simple), and test it off the bike by momentarily powering it with 12V in each direction, bearing in mind it isn't intended to run continuously while free running so just a quick burst. repeat several times (ad nauseam) to make sure there's not a dead segment or similar.

 

……………… and don't forget to check those charging voltages.

Edited September 19, 2018 by embee

[Guest Tumo]

Thanks mate.  I am still trying to get the dealer to take it back one more time (unlikely) but if that fells through, this is all very much appreciated.  I also printed your checklist from yesterday.

 

All this very kind of you!

 

[Guest Tumo]

Embee, I tested current to the shift motor.  I can see some voltage when turning the ignition but in the mV range, not at all 12V.  I unplugged, cleaned and re-plugged all the connectors I could find around the engine.  I also checked, clean and resat main connector at the LCD display.  When holding the brake down, I can start the engine, but gear display still shows 5 and none of the D, S, Up, Down, M/A buttons work.  I can trigger the DCT initialization (DDSDS) but it consistently fails, DS stay lit and I see a flashing dash instead of gear number.  If I recall initialization doesn't take more than a minute of so.  I let it sat for 3 or 4 minutes without success.

[embee 7,288]

Have you cleaned/unplugged the connectors on the switchgear? They are about 18" or so down the wiring harnesses, somewhere just inside the fairing I'd guess, that's where they are on my Integra. I'd do both sides since there are DCT controls on each. Probably not these as the ECM clearly thinks it's in gear and ought to go to N on its own without input from the switchgear, but it won't hurt to check.

If it displays 5 (or any other gear come to that) the initialisation won't work, it needs to be in N (and hot). I would expect the shift motor to get sent 12V when you switch on the ignition if it believes it is in a gear, it will always try to get to N before it is ready to start. 

I'd suggest next step (which might be time consuming but necessary) is to get to the ECM (control module) and see if it is sending out 12V to the shift motor. According to my wiring diag there are twinned pins, 2 for SMOM and 2 for SMOP at the right hand end of this diagram. Those are the pink/blue and yellow/blue wires which go down to the shift motor. Of course your wiring may be different or different colours, I can't guarantee anything.

If you can get probes into the connector you can do it directly and turn on the ignition (see if it still says a gear selected), otherwise take the connector off (sometimes easier said than done) and check the continuity between the relative pins and the connector down at the shift motor itself.

Obviously be careful with the battery connected, it's necessary for some checks.

Let's work through this a step at a time.

 

Edited September 19, 2018 by embee

[pjm 6,041]

Can you get it to reset by rocking the rear wheel backwards and forwards with it switched on?

[Guest Tumo]

PJM, yes, I tried hard... back and forth, side to side, push kick....  No go.  Embee thanks again for all the thorough stuff.  Today's update (Day 70): Dealer left an unusually nice an apologetic message on my voicemail saying that they want to come pickup the bike and look at it once more. That was a bit weird, maybe Honda talked to them... Face with limited options, I agreed but said I want to start from a clean slate and have all existing repair charges waived. For regular updates, please check this thread on the NC700-Forum here:

 

https://www.bad link/forum/nc700-technical/14521-dct-issue.htm

 

I really appreciate your help.  Thanks!

[Tex 36,817]

 

1 minute ago, Tumo said:

 

 

For regular updates, please check this thread on the NC700-Forum here:

 

https://www.bad link/forum/nc700-technical/14521-dct-issue.htm

 

I really appreciate your help.  Thanks!

 

Or, you could just update us here? Having asked for (and received) help it’s only polite to tell us the outcome. Good luck.