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2014 Honda NC700X - DCT Failure at 6,300 miles...


Guest Tumo

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Andy m

Diagnosis is a pretty set routine. You check for the obvious (flat battery:charge it,  actually working: complete bill, hole in sump: explain basics to owner etc.), then put the ODR reader on and get the codes. If the ECU is gone and won't read you check the fuses and loom before ordering parts. If you get a code saying its the motor you check the ECU to motor wiring then get the motor on the bench. The "motor spiked the ECU then spat its shafts out causing the crank bearings to fail, simultaneously making an RF wave that caused the billing system to add ten parts we never stocked" type thing is 99 times out of a hundred an excuse for shotgun diagnosis. Guided diagnosis via phone or app is long winded and involves the spanner monkey telling the truth and not making assumptions.*

 

My bet is that either this dealer doesn't have a genuine Honda ODR reader (the text to code on universal ones can be vague while genuine can be silly money) or they've never been trained on DCT so found it difficult to develop and test each diagnostic theory, or they are just hammer pilots who can copy what they were shown on a wheel bearing, but can't actually diagnose anything. 

 

* I have remote diagnostics on maybe 2% of the stuff I work on. Its great when the code says "Wheel sensor C open circuit" and you either relay this to a trained tech or tell a totally untrained one to pull out the smaller yellow plug and fit the part in the box the storeman gave him. It's rubbish when the tech did a competitor product training course 15 years ago, fits some Chinese knockoff part he's had in the van for 14 years then tells you he's done exactly what you asked and it hasn't worked. The solution is coded parts so you can see what's really going on, but that's five years away, you can't chip every item overnight. What you will all hate is that these parts will act like printer cartridges, if it ain't Honda the computer will say no. 

 

Andy

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Fingers crossed its sorted.    The ECU replacement is IMHO proof the dealer is incompetent. I meet this every day at work. The ECU is treated as a box full of demons and must therefore have

It's always the last thing you look at.

***I haven't heard of any other shift motor failure, I still wonder whether it was definitely the motor or whether the action of taking one off and fitting another actually fixed a connection fault. T

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Analysing faults remotely is fraught with difficulty. The classic case is when someone says my engine is making a sort of chunk-splut-click noise, what is wrong with it?

A friend recently got in touch saying his diesel Saab 93 wouldn't start, what could be wrong with it? Ermmm, give me a few more clues please. Try searching the Saab/Vauxhall/GM owners' forums and suddenly there are a few hundred threads on why their diesel won't start.

 

On this DCT issue, once it's established that the known faults aren't responsible it came down to trying to decide what the system was and what it wasn't doing. It wasn't carrying out shifts but it wasn't flagging a DCT fault, so as far as it was concerned there weren't any faults with components it had information about. Also as far as it was concerned it said do a shift and afterwards the signals all said things were OK (although it hadn't done a shift physically). So the fundamental question was did the ECU send out a shift instruction and did the shift motor receive a shift instruction. That was where I was at with the last suggestions for checking the signals at each end of the wires between ECU and shift motor, and whether the shift motor actually worked when powered. Those checks would tell whether the fault was with the electrical instruction side or the physical response side. It appears it was the physical response side.

 

I haven't heard of any other shift motor failure, I still wonder whether it was definitely the motor or whether the action of taking one off and fitting another actually fixed a connection fault. The owner may not really care as long as it's fixed.

 

This episode is all useful info for any future similar fault, just like the reports of the broken shift pin has been priceless in diagnosing some faults.

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SteveThackery
27 minutes ago, embee said:

So the fundamental question was did the ECU send out a shift instruction and did the shift motor receive a shift instruction. That was where I was at with the last suggestions for checking the signals at each end of the wires between ECU and shift motor, and whether the shift motor actually worked when powered. Those checks would tell whether the fault was with the electrical instruction side or the physical response side. It appears it was the physical response side.

 

Exactly - that is a taste of how the diagnostic procedure should have gone.  It looks like none of that was done.

 

27 minutes ago, embee said:

 

I haven't heard of any other shift motor failure, I still wonder whether it was definitely the motor or whether the action of taking one off and fitting another actually fixed a connection fault. The owner may not really care as long as it's fixed.

 

I'm wondering, too.  There's a kind of equivalent in the electronics world.  I used to provide 3rd level tech support on a product that had lots of cards plugged into shelves.  The system was designed to run continuously and never be powered down.  Sometimes a card would be faulty, so the technician would unplug it and plug in a new one.  The cards were designed for "hot swapping", so you could change a card without powering down the system.

 

Alarm bells started to ring when loads of these cards were recorded as "fault not found" by the manufacturer when they were returned to stock.  They blamed our techs for changing cards unnecessarily.  We blamed their diagnostic machines for not adequately testing all the failure modes.  Eventually it became clear that various software bugs could cause the card to "lock up", and only a power-down would get them working again.  So it wasn't swapping the card that fixed the fault, but simply unplugging it.  They could have fixed the lock-up just by unplugging and replugging the same card.  That's why it tested perfectly when tested by the manufacturer - the hardware was fine and the software wasn't sufficiently exercised.

 

I'm telling you this story because - having been a diagnostics and reliability engineer - I know only too well that what SEEMS to be happening is very often not what is REALLY happening, and it is only too easy to be led up the garden path if a rigorous diagnostics procedure is not followed.  In the aerospace industry, fault diagnostics is taken very seriously and rigorous step-by-step procedures are defined.  In the automotive world (including motorcycles) I suspect little or nothing is defined beyond the diagnostics codes built into the ECU.

 

I thought the whole point of 2nd level tech support was to handle those cases where the in-built diagnostics didn't help and the technician at the dealer didn't know how to proceed.  The 2nd level support people should have an intimate knowledge of how the system works, so should be able to determine exactly what diagnostics steps to follow and communicate those to the technician (or go out there and do the work themselves).  Just like embee demonstrated, above.

 

It seems as if that is too much to expect, which makes you wonder why Honda even offer an escalation path if all they do is throw new parts at it, just as the technician could have done in the first place.

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ChrisCB

It's always the last thing you look at.

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Dealer’s bins are full of perfectly good components that were changed because of connection problems. Regrettably some of them mine.. :( but at least I have learned along the way.. ;) 

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DaveM59

I suppose a dealers highest charge to a customer is Labour, so throwing parts at it that are quick to swap may still be  possibly cheaper and a little easier to swallow than saying '£800 for labour so far and not found the fault, do you want us to keep looking?'

If in cases like this though, the final bill for the actual faulty part had a decent discount for the parts already fitted and paid for that were not faulty, it would be better still. After all the parts removed can be labelled OK, kept and used in other repairs.

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***I haven't heard of any other shift motor failure, I still wonder whether it was definitely the motor or whether the action of taking one off and fitting another actually fixed a connection fault. The owner may not really care as long as it's fixed.****

 

 

 

Embee, my dealer told me the shift motor was one of the first things they check, reason being:::: DCT is nothing new to Honda they have used it for a few years in Quads..

If they are good for farmers use then they must be ok..

They told me they should forcibly move your hand when power is applied to them, if not change the motor..It seems they go wrong on the farm quads but not as often on

the bikes.

Lyn.

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42 minutes ago, DaveM59 said:

I suppose a dealers highest charge to a customer is Labour, so throwing parts at it that are quick to swap may still be  possibly cheaper and a little easier to swallow than saying '£800 for labour so far and not found the fault, do you want us to keep looking?'

 

There is quite a big element of truth in this. Why spend half an hour (£30+) seeing if you can determine whether a £30 item is faulty, you may as well just change it for 5mins labour. Sometimes I do indeed resort to the "just change it" approach with my own stuff, wheel bearings for example, but my costings are different when working on my own stuff compared to working for someone else.

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SteveThackery
2 hours ago, DaveM59 said:

I suppose a dealers highest charge to a customer is Labour, so throwing parts at it that are quick to swap may still be  possibly cheaper and a little easier to swallow than saying '£800 for labour so far and not found the fault, do you want us to keep looking?'

 

Actually, this is something that I really hate.  I do NOT want to pay for labour.  I want to pay for the repair.  In other words, if they've spent four hours on it and can't find the fault, then it's tough sh!t on them.  The problem with paying for labour is that you've no control over the quality of the labour.  They could deliberately work as slowly as possible to push up the job cost, or they could put an unqualified tech on it who takes all day and then charge me twice as much.

 

The car main dealers are actually pretty good.  On two occasions (one a Honda dealer, one a Lexus dealer) I've been quoted a fixed amount to do a job.  If it takes them longer than expected, then the price to me stays the same.  I think all garages should work on that basis: give me a firm quote for the job and then stick to it.  If the job fails or cannot be done, then the charge should be zero.

 

This actually happened to me a short while ago.  I took my car to be regassed because the aircon wasn't working.  They quoted me £75 to do the job.  They pumped out the old gas, pumped in the new gas, and tested it.  It didn't work (due to a faulty compressor, as it turns out).  Despite my efforts, they refused any payment because "we haven't fixed it".  I think that is admirable.

 

On another occasion I took my Audi to a garage (not the main dealer) to get a misfire fixed.  The guy worked on it for two hours before admitting he was unable to locate the cause.  He then charged me for two hours labour!  So I drove away - still with the misfire - but minus £120!!  That cannot be right, by any standard.

 

It all boils down to a disconnect between what the customer is buying and what the garage is selling.  The customer wants to buy a repair; the garage wants to sell labour.  Why?  Because the garage's costs are incurred by labour, so they want to charge for it.  But that isn't what the customer cares about.  

 

2 hours ago, DaveM59 said:

If in cases like this though, the final bill for the actual faulty part had a decent discount for the parts already fitted and paid for that were not faulty, it would be better still. After all the parts removed can be labelled OK, kept and used in other repairs.

 

No way!  Firstly, I do not want to pay anything for parts that were changed unnecessarily!  As far as I'm concerned they can take them all off again and put the originals back.  Secondly, fitting used parts that were not faulty to another customer's bike is seriously dodgy - unless they are told that the parts are second hand but good, and charged a reduced amount.

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Update (Day 84):  So... IT'S FIXED.  I rode the NC over 30 miles in fairly warm weather and intense city driving conditions and gear shifting was as smooth as it should be.  It seems ridiculous that after 80 days at the shop, the culprit ended up being a very easy fix, the $220 shifting motor. 

So, I want to first thank all on this great forum who have jumped to the rescue with advice, tips, suggestions and moral support.  It has been quite a roller coaster since my bike was first towed to the dealer on July 11. I am also thanking the dealer (Coleman PowerSports) which at first was slow to respond and provided sub-par repairs and testing.  That coincided with them being at the height of the season and short handed.  At a time were they seamed ready to drop the ball and not want my bike back in the shop,  things kicked into gear and in the past month, I have seen huge improvements in returning calls and emails and keeping me updated on the repair progress.  To their credit, Honda tech services provided guidance in the last repair and mis-diagnosed a faulty PCM (ECU)....  As for Honda PowerSports Customer Care, overall a very disappointing experience.  Their reps are obviously trained to tame the customer and talk nice but they pretty much limit the scope of their actions to facilitate communications between dealer and customer.  I know their products are good (I bought 3 Honda motorcycles and 2 cars so far...) but as with many companies who manufacture good products, they get cocky and don't give a shit about isolated incidents because they know they will get buried in the overwhelming positive image the company enjoys.  Things turned a bit sour after I informed them I had started a twitter feed to share my DCT woes.  They took notice right away and my customer care rep called inquiring about my intentions to share this on social media... 

 

As for Honda's DCT, here are some thoughts.

 

- After riding in town over an hour today, it keeps reminding me how great and unique the system is.  That is the very one thing that would make me hesitate to fall back to a classic gear shifting motorcycle.  For the record, I have owned Hondas XL125, CB500, BMW GS650, F800ST...  
- As far as I can tell, DCT is reliable.  There are plenty of reports of riders with 30, 40, 50K and so miles with no issues at all.  But if you search carefully, you will also find incidents here in there, most minor  and easily taken care by resetting the DCT.  More serious issues are related to a bad battery, loss of power, faulty connections, defective shifter pin or sensors.
- DCT works well and can save your clutch pack from premature wear but with its 6 sensors, shifting motor, dual clutches and PCM, it definitely adds complication when comparing to a traditional bike.  Despite the pretty thorough checklists in the service manual and the error codes the computer is supposed to record, there are obviously some gaps to fill when troubleshooting problems.  In my case, there was no clear fault code that indicated a faulty shifting motor...
- I am happy to keep ridding a DCT bike in the city but in regard to my latest experience, I'd be a bit leery to do a long, adventure journey on one.

Coincidentally, as I was leaving the shop today, a mechanic told me a NC700X with 2,000 miles was brought in the day before with a similar DCT problem.  I wished him good luck.

 

Thanks all!

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12 hours ago, SteveThackery said:

I thought the whole point of 2nd level tech support was to handle those cases where the in-built diagnostics didn't help and the technician at the dealer didn't know how to proceed.  The 2nd level support people should have an intimate knowledge of how the system works, so should be able to determine exactly what diagnostics steps to follow and communicate those to the technician (or go out there and do the work themselves).  Just like embee demonstrated, above.

 

It seems as if that is too much to expect, which makes you wonder why Honda even offer an escalation path if all they do is throw new parts at it, just as the technician could have done in the first place.

I believe Honda US started to assist the dealer around day 60.  That is when the "PCM needs to be replaced" diagnostic came so, I don't know how good Honda tech service is.  I was really hoping they would send a Japanese engineer to fix it (and that has happened in the motorcycle world) and I can almost guarantee that the guy would have follow a trouble shooting checklist to the letter and found the problem quick.  That is the way they work, not american mechanics.

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SteveThackery
22 hours ago, Tumo said:


- As far as I can tell, DCT is reliable.  There are plenty of reports of riders with 30, 40, 50K and so miles with no issues at all.  But if you search carefully, you will also find incidents here in there, most minor  and easily taken care by resetting the DCT.  More serious issues are related to a bad battery, loss of power, faulty connections, defective shifter pin or sensors.
- DCT works well and can save your clutch pack from premature wear but with its 6 sensors, shifting motor, dual clutches and PCM, it definitely adds complication when comparing to a traditional bike.  Despite the pretty thorough checklists in the service manual and the error codes the computer is supposed to record, there are obviously some gaps to fill when troubleshooting problems.  In my case, there was no clear fault code that indicated a faulty shifting motor...

 

Thanks for a great final report, Tumo - it's really useful to "close the loop" on these threads so future users can learn from them.

 

Just a bit of Reliability Engineering stuff, should anyone be interested..... When a complex system is designed (such as the DCT), it is normal to perform an FMEA (failure modes and effects analysis) on it to identify (hopefully) all the ways in which the system might fail, and all the effects arising therefrom.  In critical systems (such as in aerospace) a great deal of effort goes into both detecting and mitigating the effects of such failures.  In automotive applications, things are (arguably) less critical and budgets are MUCH more constrained, so less design effort is spent on it.

 

The ability for a system to detect faults in itself (or a subsystem) is called the "fault coverage", and it almost never reaches 100%.  This means that there will be some failure modes which remain undetected (and thus unreported, and unmitigated).  New systems and low cost systems (which I guess includes Honda's DCT) tend to have a lower fault coverage.  Sometimes the designers knowingly leave some failure modes uncovered by the diagnostics because it would cost too much to detect them.

 

The failure in Tumo's bike was an example of a fault that fell outside the fault coverage of the DCT system diagnostics (at least initially).  I guess we'll never know whether that failure mode was unanticipated by the design engineers, or knowingly left uncovered to save money.

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Guest ChrisS
On 03/10/2018 at 23:25, Tumo said:

Update (Day 84):  So... IT'S FIXED.  I rode the NC over 30 miles in fairly warm weather and intense city driving conditions and gear shifting was as smooth as it should be.  It seems ridiculous that after 80 days at the shop, the culprit ended up being a very easy fix, the $220 shifting motor. 

So, I want to first thank all on this great forum who have jumped to the rescue with advice, tips, suggestions and moral support.  It has been quite a roller coaster since my bike was first towed to the dealer on July 11. I am also thanking the dealer (Coleman PowerSports) which at first was slow to respond and provided sub-par repairs and testing.  That coincided with them being at the height of the season and short handed.  At a time were they seamed ready to drop the ball and not want my bike back in the shop,  things kicked into gear and in the past month, I have seen huge improvements in returning calls and emails and keeping me updated on the repair progress.  To their credit, Honda tech services provided guidance in the last repair and mis-diagnosed a faulty PCM (ECU)....  As for Honda PowerSports Customer Care, overall a very disappointing experience.  Their reps are obviously trained to tame the customer and talk nice but they pretty much limit the scope of their actions to facilitate communications between dealer and customer.  I know their products are good (I bought 3 Honda motorcycles and 2 cars so far...) but as with many companies who manufacture good products, they get cocky and don't give a shit about isolated incidents because they know they will get buried in the overwhelming positive image the company enjoys.  Things turned a bit sour after I informed them I had started a twitter feed to share my DCT woes.  They took notice right away and my customer care rep called inquiring about my intentions to share this on social media... 

 

As for Honda's DCT, here are some thoughts.

 

- After riding in town over an hour today, it keeps reminding me how great and unique the system is.  That is the very one thing that would make me hesitate to fall back to a classic gear shifting motorcycle.  For the record, I have owned Hondas XL125, CB500, BMW GS650, F800ST...  
- As far as I can tell, DCT is reliable.  There are plenty of reports of riders with 30, 40, 50K and so miles with no issues at all.  But if you search carefully, you will also find incidents here in there, most minor  and easily taken care by resetting the DCT.  More serious issues are related to a bad battery, loss of power, faulty connections, defective shifter pin or sensors.
- DCT works well and can save your clutch pack from premature wear but with its 6 sensors, shifting motor, dual clutches and PCM, it definitely adds complication when comparing to a traditional bike.  Despite the pretty thorough checklists in the service manual and the error codes the computer is supposed to record, there are obviously some gaps to fill when troubleshooting problems.  In my case, there was no clear fault code that indicated a faulty shifting motor...
- I am happy to keep ridding a DCT bike in the city but in regard to my latest experience, I'd be a bit leery to do a long, adventure journey on one.

Coincidentally, as I was leaving the shop today, a mechanic told me a NC700X with 2,000 miles was brought in the day before with a similar DCT problem.  I wished him good luck.

 

Thanks all!

DCT is THE future for gearbox’s, it makes sense on every level. Purists may disagree, but for normal everyday driving/riding, machines change gear better then humans. Here in the UK with over-crowded, speed limited roads, a DCT equipped vehicle allows the driver/rider to focus on safety and road/conditions...

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Rocker66
19 minutes ago, ChrisS said:

DCT is THE future for gearbox’s, it makes sense on every level. Purists may disagree, but for normal everyday driving/riding, machines change gear better then humans. Here in the UK with over-crowded, speed limited roads, a DCT equipped vehicle allows the driver/rider to focus on safety and road/conditions...

Does changing gear really take that much thought that it distracts the rider from concentrating on the actual riding. I certainly never find myself concentrating on changing gear it’s just something that that is done almost subconsciouslyDCT is Great for those that like it or find it solves a physical problem they may have but as long as I’m capeable of riding a manual that’s what I shall stick.to?

Please don’t start another another  DCT bikes are superior to the manual thread as it maybe for some but not for others. It just depends on personal taste. Before you ask yes I have tried and owned a DCT equipped bike.

Edited by Rocker66
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Spindizzy

Both are true. I have a CVT scoot and a manual NC750S. In town on the scoot  I find not having to think at all about gears a real plus point. I can put any foot down, go, stop and focus entirely on what I am doing to negotiate traffic. I can do similar on the NC but the CVT is frankly better suited. Out on the open road I prefer the NC, I enjoy the process of changing gears how I want to and when zipping past cars.

 

Both can do the same thing, but for the process of solely getting from A to B I think an auto edges it. For fun of riding I would prefer a manual. Also personal preference makes someone lean one way or the other.

 

Its all going electric eventually, enjoy it while you can :ahappy:

 

 

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Rocker66
3 minutes ago, Spindizzy said:

Both are true. I have a CVT scoot and a manual NC750S. In town on the scoot  I find not having to think at all about gears a real plus point. I can put any foot down, go, stop and focus entirely on what I am doing to negotiate traffic. I can do similar on the NC but the CVT is frankly better suited. Out on the open road I prefer the NC, I enjoy the process of changing gears how I want to and when zipping past cars.

 

Both can do the same thing, but for the process of solely getting from A to B I think an auto edges it. For fun of riding I would prefer a manual. Also personal preference makes someone lean one way or the other.

 

Its all going electric eventually, enjoy it while you can :ahappy:

 

 

By the time it is all electric I will well past caring.

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The beauty of DCT is that you really get the best of both world.  I use the automatic mode when ridding around town, talking on the phone (bluetooth helmet) and when I feel I don't want to drive aggressively  , DCT is truly another layer of safety to the pilot.  Then when I really want to ride, I just switch to manual mode and enjoy switching gears, downshifting and so on.  So, to me it is no a question of manual vs auto, DCT does both equally well.  Ok, no clutch on DCT but that I don't miss...

Edited by Tumo
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On 06/10/2018 at 19:16, Rocker66 said:

Does changing gear really take that much thought that it distracts the rider from concentrating on the actual riding. I certainly never find myself concentrating on changing gear it’s just something that that is done almost subconsciouslyDCT is Great for those that like it or find it solves a physical problem they may have but as long as I’m capeable of riding a manual that’s what I shall stick.to?

Please don’t start another another  DCT bikes are superior to the manual thread as it maybe for some but not for others. It just depends on personal taste. Before you ask yes I have tried and owned a DCT equipped bike.

Auto gearbox sales rise 70% since 2007, 40% of new vehicles sold are auto gearboxes.

 

“Consumers are enjoying greater freedom and mobility than ever before, which along with greater reliability and improved fuel efficiency, make owning a car a more attractive and affordable option for millions of people. With every new model launched, more motorists are benefitting from more advanced technology”.

 

bikes are some way behind the car industry, but this is coming.

 

not wanting to start a thread about DCT vs manual or indeed an argument, the facts speak for themselves. Auto g//boxes are better at changing gear than humans, machines are better at many things, humans are great at decision making. In normal driving/riding conditions, an auto g/box makes sense. 

 

No issue if some choose to use manual (I drive manual cars), changing gear when driving fast across country in the right conditions is amazing, changing gear when commuting or in heavy stop/start traffic is not...

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Rocker66
9 minutes ago, ChrisS said:

Auto gearbox sales rise 70% since 2007, 40% of new vehicles sold are auto gearboxes.

 

“Consumers are enjoying greater freedom and mobility than ever before, which along with greater reliability and improved fuel efficiency, make owning a car a more attractive and affordable option for millions of people. With every new model launched, more motorists are benefitting from more advanced technology”.

 

bikes are some way behind the car industry, but this is coming.

 

not wanting to start a thread about DCT vs manual or indeed an argument, the facts speak for themselves. Auto g//boxes are better at changing gear than humans, machines are better at many things, humans are great at decision making. In normal driving/riding conditions, an auto g/box makes sense. 

 

No issue if some choose to use manual (I drive manual cars), changing gear when driving fast across country in the right conditions is amazing, changing gear when commuting or in heavy stop/start traffic is not...

Don’t give aa hoot about cars as I never drive them . Not having car licence or any interest in them.

For me there is no DCT v Manual as it’s all a matter of personal preference. It’s just when people go on about how superior they are they  might as well say the X is superior to the S or vice versa. Whether or not all this modern technology is a benefit or not is a matter of opinion for me some definitely is and some I,m not bothered about and don’t personally want.

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I rather fancy another DCT. But it doesn’t half restrict your choice.. :( 

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Spindizzy
23 minutes ago, Tex said:

I rather fancy another DCT. But it doesn’t half restrict your choice.. :( 

CVT tex.....you know you want to.

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2 hours ago, Spindizzy said:

CVT tex.....you know you want to.

 

That restricts the choice even more, sadly. :( 

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