Battery died, alternator or regulator?

[klrman 560]

In reality, both methods are fine provided that they are done properly. Many of the overheating and mechanical failures are caused by ham fisted skinning of the insulation resulting in reduced CSA. Soldering often compensates for this by capillary action back up the wire. Again, soldering is more forgiving than using uncoordinated  wire, crimp terminal and tool.

[SteveThackery 3,090]

7 hours ago, tw586 said:

solder is not recommended in automotive applications. heats up the copper wire and hardens it, the vibration causes it to start snap at the solder joint.  

 

Crimping also hardens the copper wire through work hardening.  A lot depends on the type of crimp - some are terrible.  The same is true of soldered joints, of course - some are terrible.

 

I would guess that in a production environment crimping is always used because it is easy to crimp by machine, with great consistency and accuracy.  It's a different story when hand-crimping joints - the quality of the joint varies enormously with the type of crimp and its make, the type and make of crimping tool, and the skill of the operator.  

 

For one-off hand-made repairs on a loom, I would always solder (perhaps as well as crimping).  I wouldn't have thought it was necessary in a production environment.

 

Incidentally, surely heating the copper wire anneals it, not hardens it??

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by SteveThackery

[Andy m 23,458]

SAE J1939 etc. are twisted pair, so have to be mechanical except the final connection onto a circuit board which is flow wave soldered. The tools are specific too. You'd need a surgical microscope to solder a lot of them where they RF weld the pair. 

 

Australia is a very harsh environment and suffers from not having your own regs. Trying to get Swedish truck makers to understand they can't just change a CAN signal or wiring spec and expect it to work on a road train which includes US parts is not something I envy you for. My only involvement is try to get UK trailer builders to understand they can't just assume ECE spec will work. There are cables you simply aren't supposed to joint, ISO 7638 for example, but I can't think of any on a light vehicle except ABS sensor cables. 

 

There is difference IMHO between the cable sending the brake signal to the fifth trailer full of aviation fuel and one that'll leave a commuter bike on the hard shoulder. 

 

Andy

 

 

 

 

[tw586 88]

Andy, 

we have the worst time of it down here, European, Japanese  and american prime movers trying to connect to US or German  TEBS braking systems for trailers of different communication standards and now with the regulations for all new multi trailer systems all having to comply to full EBS and ABS is a nightmare. still get the old guys trying to fix things with a 12v test light and scotch lock  (nick name for crip wire taps ) no wonder I have no hair left. be nice if all manufactures followed the one set of standards like in cars, but I have been in this industry now for 40 odd years and I doubt I will see that day in my lifetime

[djsb 491]

This might be useful?

 

https://prod.nais.nasa.gov/eps/eps_data/145968-OTHER-002-006.pdf

 

and

 

https://nepp.nasa.gov/docuploads/06AA01BA-FC7E-4094-AE829CE371A7B05D/NASA-STD-8739.3.pdf

 

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by djsb

[kayz1 2,928]

1 hour ago, djsb said:

This might be useful?

 

https://prod.nais.nasa.gov/eps/eps_data/145968-OTHER-002-006.pdf

 

and

 

https://nepp.nasa.gov/docuploads/06AA01BA-FC7E-4094-AE829CE371A7B05D/NASA-STD-8739.3.pdf

 

 

Good read.

[tw586 88]

14 hours ago, djsb said:

This might be useful?

 

https://prod.nais.nasa.gov/eps/eps_data/145968-OTHER-002-006.pdf

 

and

 

https://nepp.nasa.gov/docuploads/06AA01BA-FC7E-4094-AE829CE371A7B05D/NASA-STD-8739.3.pdf

 

 

 Makes crimping look easy 

[djsb 491]

Or you can get some heat shrink solder sleeves off that auction site.

[embee 7,288]

the others have summed things up comprehensively regarding production methods for electrical connections. The other thing can be the longer term effects of the fluxes used, which can vary significantly depending on solder type and process. 

FWIW if I need to do a repair on copper wires which really can only sensibly be done by soldering, I use the old fashioned "nasty" lead/tin solder, 63/37 being the ideal to use, which I understand offers probably the best long term reliability with about the lowest working temperature, so effects of heating insulation etc is minimised. This of course can't usually be used in production environments these days. It's much easier to use than lead free variants for the occasional "casual" operator like me, some of which have working temps over 220C compared to 180C or thereabouts for 63/37.

[SteveThackery 3,090]

10 hours ago, embee said:

FWIW if I need to do a repair on copper wires which really can only sensibly be done by soldering, I use the old fashioned "nasty" lead/tin solder, 63/37 being the ideal to use, which I understand offers probably the best long term reliability with about the lowest working temperature....

 

Absolutely agree.  Been messing with electronics and electrics for 45 years now, and the new lead-free solders are a pain in the arse for hand soldering with a soldering iron.  The solder doesn't melt as easily, nor does it wet the wires as easily.  In fact, it has no merits at all apart from being (allegedly) kinder to the environment.

 

I'm sure that's why flux-cored leaded solder is widely available from all the suppliers: RS Components, Rapid, Farnell, etc.

 

I always use the leaded solder for repairs, just as embee does.  In all respects other than environmental, it is the best.

[Guest Anything-but]

Update:

 

Seems i dodged a major bullet as once everything was re-connected (crimped and soldered /w shrinkwrap) nothing seemed damaged, so put everything back together and i'm ready to rock again!

 

One thing though, as with most things i appear to have taken 2 bolts off and appear to not have a home for 'em after putting it all back! I guess by the non corroded nature they're from under the pannels somewhere, but unless someone can identify 'em as something structual (which i doubt) then it'll wait till the weekend.

 

Pic of said offenders...

 

[Andy m 23,458]

Inside the helmet locker or the panel below the seat? 

 

Andy

[Guest Anything-but]

7 hours ago, Andy m said:

Inside the helmet locker or the panel below the seat? 

 

Andy

 

Tbh, i think after checking it's no:3 as i definitely undid those to drop the front to get better access at the regulator...will check the weekend.

 

 

...nope, they're no:10 in the pic below, obviously put the wrong one in there! At least that mystery's solved.

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by Anything-but

[Steve Case 939]

Hello Peeps,

 

Sorry for reopening a very old thread but I have created/caused exactly the same fault as the author of this question and although I have affected a temporary repair I wish to make good before the winter gets its salty fingers into my wiring loom.

 

Firstly I have used a high flex cable but it's not tinned so rather than have it melt like an MT-07 loom in the snow I would like to get some tinned high flex (maybe even yellow) cable to use - does anyone know the AWG/CSA of the original altenator leads.

 

I would use a crimp butt joint with heat shrink outer but due to constricted space I may have to solder (- on the crimp solder work hardening I would say its the same for both as its due to unsupported cores where the insulation has not been crimped or heat shrink not applied to a solder joint so the insulation on either side of the joint will support it. Basically if you can see bare cores out the joint you've done it wrong and need to remake the joint or it will fail).

 

Also where is the reg/rec located as I need to free off the wires to fit a long enough cable outer.

 

Does this cable seem correct (2.5mm CSA)

https://www.vehiclewiringproducts.co.uk/c-48-cables/c-199-tinned-single-core-pvc-thin-wall-cable/p-1025-35-0-30mm-2-5mm-sq-29-amps

[davebike 943]

That will work

I go for simplar and cheaper and just solder the joints 

We started soldering joints on VFR's and now tend to do on any bike we replace rec/reg or stator on just add relibility most multyway plug and sockets don't cope well in the charging system if in dought replace !

 

[Steve Case 939]

Thanks Dave.

I am leaning that way myself as my soldering is not that bad and space is the issue, so smaller solder joint with shink wrap should do the job.

 

Did see this on UToob as his solder joints are better than mine, much much neater.

 

[dave 959]

These are being used in the motor trade

https://www.that auction site.co.uk/itm/256176078092?hash=item3ba548bd0c:g:j7QAAOSwxxBk09JG&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0GwVC11zgcLyoxV%2B2Hs2zDmpst2x8%2BuDZF40SPFqupit3NiB%2FSRshcKmNYBGTbVau9ZOgIxTdPb%2FfSExZ9fcoe%2FVbOWYMDuRSzptfOvAFTiK%2BeuVEmT%2F5IBs718N%2F7RDEHbB9drtBCJONtlrMJbgoCkSUlar%2BT5zTeVRZuG3%2B%2FVa5c24a9kQvzQAYhAA84cDs97WRsm7S1VgDJzEYePfjLjCrpBGgI4%2FOhUPevdUMlrmZHpCBZdB50HTeSJX0e7HtFsvslzW0spV%2BQC1TKrOL3I%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR5CRh-rMYg

 

 

[Steve Case 939]

I may give those a try in the future but not for this job due to space.

I already use butt joint which have a crimped tube and heat shrink outer sleeve for work jobs.

I use them because they look tidier than shrink wrap and the japs use them.

On the bike i just want a good joint.