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10w - 30 or 10w -40


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MikeBike
21 hours ago, motorbykcourier said:

 

8000 miles on the dot - or very close and fully synthetic - Castrol Racing 10W40

Is yours the DCT?

 

My dealer has always used 10W-40 in my DCT. Reads "MOTUL 10/40 SEMI-SYNTHETIC".

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OIL THREAD ALERT   10W40 here. Its cheaper, it's more readily available, it does what's required, at 8000 miles most of us are changing it early anyway.    Spend your time checking

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Ah now we are talking , tyre pressure ! Got to be a long one this . I’ll start it . Should I use air or a mix . And what ratios work best for sporty commute/ touring use . Sometimes with a passenger b

motorbykcourier
1 hour ago, MikeBike said:

Is yours the DCT?

 

My dealer has always used 10W-40 in my DCT. Reads "MOTUL 10/40 SEMI-SYNTHETIC".

No just straight forward …...

If you know what I mean :blink:

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motorbykcourier

Have also tried some expensive 'nano technology' oils' - but always come back to Castrol.

Sorry, just my preference.....:angel:

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On ‎07‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 14:39, Tonyj said:

Ah now we are talking , tyre pressure ! Got to be a long one this . I’ll start it . Should I use air or a mix . And what ratios work best for sporty commute/ touring use . Sometimes with a passenger but most times without . And mostly northern hemisphere, but I might go south . :0))

I get the best results with 78.09% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon and 0.04% carbon dioxide. Somewhat higher proportions of carbon dioxide will not affect tire pressure, but may have other negative side effects.

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Andy m

Take care with that mix, it can contain aerosol hydrogen dioxide. 

 

If using bottled, make sure you don't get the wrong bottle off the gas axe. Acetylene will really ruin your ride. 

 

Andy

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SteveThackery
20 hours ago, MikeBike said:

My dealer has always used 10W-40 in my DCT. Reads "MOTUL 10/40 SEMI-SYNTHETIC".

 

Well he shouldn't.  The specification is perfectly clear: 10W-30 in temperate climes.

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The dealer of my wife's NC uses MOTUL 10W-40 full synthetic, probably because that is what they need for most other bikes. It seems to have no ill effect on the NC and, with Summer temps over here peaking at 38° C, our climate is not that temperate anymore.

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22 minutes ago, SteveThackery said:

 

Well he shouldn't.  The specification is perfectly clear: 10W-30 in temperate climes.

 

Steve, I'm with you on this, I just don't get why people insist on trying different oil grades to those specified by the manufacturer (excepted of course if they are 5000 miles into their round the world trip and can only get 10w - 40 in Mongolia), it's not as if it's difficult or costly to get the right grade and any difference in performance or engine wear would be so slight (if at all) that no one is going to notice.

 

Slightly contrary to that, my GSXR1000 manual states several oil grades can be used depending on extremes of outside temperature and use so I just plump for the one that covers the widest range. Perhaps if I went up a viscosity I would see another 0.2bhp at it's next dyno run, hmmmmmm, worth thinking about .............. :hmm:  :frantics:  :D

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Andy m

It's like having 500 TV channels and then watching Corrie and Stenders, mostly just something to talk about down the pub. 10W97 fully sympathetic with added nigellium as used by TT winners just ticks boxes for some people. 

 

The dealers use 10W40 because they buy it in 50 gallon drums and can't be bothered to order anything special. Has anyone ever made a dealer change it again? Did they, or did they just write another bill out? They know naff all about DCT (or other things, for example that my CB handbook says oil at 8000 miles not 4000 as they told me when I picked it up) and don't care. 

 

Andy

Edited by Andy m
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Rocker66
6 minutes ago, Andy m said:

It's like having 500 TV channels and then watching Corrie and Stenders, mostly just something to talk about down the pub. 10W97 fully sympathetic with added nigellium as used by TT winners just ticks boxes for some people. 

 

The dealers use 10W40 because they buy it in 50 gallon drums and can't be bothered to order anything special. Has anyone ever made a dealer change it again? Did they, or did they just write another bill out? They know naff all about DCT (or other things, for example that my CB handbook says oil at 8000 miles not 4000 as they told me when I picked it up) and don't care. 

 

Andy

Sounds as though you need to change your dealerthen if they really are as clueless as you suggest.

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Andy m

I don't use a dealer. I train them, so see the level of recruit, the pressure they put them under, the management etc. Some are OK, some shouldn't be trusted with lego, none take care I do with my own work. 

 

Andy

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Rocker66
16 minutes ago, Andy m said:

I don't use a dealer. I train them, so see the level of recruit, the pressure they put them under, the management etc. Some are OK, some shouldn't be trusted with lego, none take care I do with my own work. 

 

Andy

Then maybe you could use the word “some” rather than insinuate that it applies to all dealers. I know that the guys at my dealers are trained on site at at the Honda UK training centre and I’m sure that this applies to other dealers.

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Graham NZ

I know that when I do an oil change it's done more correctly than a dealer could spend the time doing that.  Drain the oil when really hot, leave the drain plug out overnight to allow as much old oil as possible to drain, refill to the correct level, run the engine for a few minutes, adjust the level again.

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4 hours ago, Trev said:

 

Steve, I'm with you on this, I just don't get why people insist on trying different oil grades to those specified by the manufacturer (excepted of course if they are 5000 miles into their round the world trip and can only get 10w - 40 in Mongolia), it's not as if it's difficult or costly to get the right grade and any difference in performance or engine wear would be so slight (if at all) that no one is going to notice.

 

Slightly contrary to that, my GSXR1000 manual states several oil grades can be used depending on extremes of outside temperature and use so I just plump for the one that covers the widest range. Perhaps if I went up a viscosity I would see another 0.2bhp at it's next dyno run, hmmmmmm, worth thinking about .............. :hmm:  :frantics:  :D

 

Because there is nothing wrong with using 10w-40, in-fact it's safe as it covers a broader temperature range.  There are no real downsides to using 10w-40 over 10w30, it may impact fuel economy minutely, you would expect it to be slightly more expensive but it seems to be identically priced. 

 

The downside to 10W-30 is if the outside temperature goes beyond its range, which usually in this country it won't but occasionally it does, and it did this year.

 

(I do actually use 10W-30 in mine).

 

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Interesting Topic, glad I searched on the forum before servicing and thank you for sharing!!!

 

I had already ordered the 7100 10w-40 when found out of the spec in the user manual requiring 10w30...

Always thought (maybe because being from southern Europe and used to a hotter weather) that a Higher number would keep me better protected.

Well I've just found out (surprise.. surprise… :baby:) that the two have completely different tech details (i.e. viscosity and pour points) at all temperatures:

 

7100 10W40:

Colour Visual Red
Viscosity grade SAE J 300 10W-40
Density at 20°C (68°F) ASTM D1298 0.861
Viscosity at 40°C (104°F) ASTM D445 90.25 mm²/s
Viscosity at 100°C (212°F) ASTM D445 13.48 mm²/s
Viscosity index ASTM D2270 151
Pour point ASTM D97 -36°C / - 32°F
Flash point ASTM D92 228°C / 442°F
TBN ASTM D 2896 8.2 mg KOH/g

 

7100 10W30:

Viscosity grade SAE J 300 10W-30
Density at 20°C (68°F) ASTM D1298 0.859
Viscosity at 40°C (104°F) ASTM D445 73.7 mm²/s
Viscosity at 100°C (212°F) ASTM D445 11.4 mm²/s
Viscosity Index ASTM D2270 147
Pour point ASTM D97 -33°C / -27.4°F
Flash point ASTM D92 228°C / 442.4°F
TBN ASTM D2896 8.4 mg KOH/g

 

I am sure there won't be much difference between the two, as your empirical experience clearly shows, but have decided to send back the 10w40 and opt for the 10w30 since I have to change it, just in case.

 

Hope this helps..

 

 

 

 

 

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SteveThackery

As I've mentioned before, I don't believe it will matter at all on the non-DCT bikes.  It's different for DCT: the electronics use the temperature of the oil to predict its viscosity, which it needs to know when actuating the clutches.  When it gets the prediction wrong you get jerky or sluggish gearchanges.  The electronics do the prediction assuming it's 10W-30, so 10W-40 is more viscous than the control unit is "expecting".

It's hard to know how severe the results will be - it seems to differ between bikes (and possibly between riders and ambient temperatures).  10W-40 definitely spoiled the gearchanges on mine when setting off on cold mornings.  Honda's R&D site explains this stuff in more detail.

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Andy m

From 40 to 100 degrees they vary from 90 to 13 and 74 to 11 centistokes viscosity. If you pick say 40 cST I bet the temperature difference to achieve it isn't much?

 

Andy

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On 2/27/2019 at 13:42, uzi22 said:

7100 10W40:
Density at 20°C (68°F) ASTM D1298 0.861
Viscosity at 40°C (104°F) ASTM D445 90.25 mm²/s
Viscosity at 100°C (212°F) ASTM D445 13.48 mm²/s
Viscosity index ASTM D2270 151
Pour point ASTM D97 -36°C / - 32°F
Flash point ASTM D92 228°C / 442°F
TBN ASTM D 2896 8.2 mg KOH/g

 

7100 10W30:


Density at 20°C (68°F) ASTM D1298 0.859
Viscosity at 40°C (104°F) ASTM D445 73.7 mm²/s
Viscosity at 100°C (212°F) ASTM D445 11.4 mm²/s
Viscosity Index ASTM D2270 147
Pour point ASTM D97 -33°C / -27.4°F
TBN ASTM D2896 8.4 mg KOH/g

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the information! Is it possible to inform us (referring a website maybe)  what means exactly numbers like '73.7 mm²/s' ?

Edited by ManosCR
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embee
3 hours ago, ManosCR said:

Thanks for the information! Is it possible to inform us (referring a website maybe)  what means exactly numbers like '73.7 mm²/s' ?

"mm²/s" is the scientific unit for what is called "kinematic viscosity". The unit "mm²/s" is also called centi-Stokes (after the scientist/engineer), and you'll see the unit cSt in tables of data for oils etc. The full SI unit is the "Stokes" but it is a rather big unit so the centi-Stokes is commonly used.

 

The viscosity of a liquid (or fluid) is the resistance to flow in simple terms. A "thicker" fluid has a higher viscosity.

There are 2 ways to look at viscosity from an engineering point of view, one is the way it pours or runs, and the other way is how it can be pumped or sheared by external force. The pouring effect brings into play the density of the fluid, a denser fluid will tend to pour more quickly simply because there is more force (due to gravity) to overcome the internal resistance of the fluid to flow. For these reasons there are 2 ways to describe the viscosity, absolute or dynamic viscosity, and kinematic viscosity. The units are different because one has the density included.

 

The simple resistance to shear is called the absolute or "dynamic viscosity", which has units of N.s/m² (or equivalent expressions). If you have a film of oil, for example, between 2 flat plates and you try to move one relative to the other, the viscosity of the oil film will resist the relative movement. The force depends on the area, the thickness of the film, the rate at which you move them, and the absolute or dynamic viscosity. In this situation the density of the fluid is more or less irrelevant, the forces all come from external sources. If you pour the oil it is flowing under its own weight, so the forces are internal.

 

The relation between kinematic and dynamic viscosity is simply the factor of the density

ν (kinematic viscosity)= μ (dynamic viscosity) / ρ (density)

The dimensional analysis for these will give you the actual units (e.g. mm²/s) , you can look into that for example at https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/dynamic-absolute-kinematic-viscosity-d_412.html

 

In practice when looking at hydrocarbon based lubricating oils, the density is very similar in most cases, so using cSt to compare them is quite satisfactory for most purposes like selecting engine oils or fork oils. Only if you are comparing quite different fluids (e.g. oil and water) would the density be significant.

 

Engine oil viscosity bandings are defined and each oil tested will be put into a band at 2 temperatures usually, depending on how the viscosity changes with temperature. One band relates to when the oil is very cold (for example 0F or -18C, but it can be different) and is given the "W" letter, the other is usually 100C or thereabouts and indicates the typical normal operating temperature for an engine. Thus a 0W40 oil will be thinner when cold and thicker when hot than a 10W30. The way an oil changes viscosity with temperature depends on the size and shape of the molecules etc.

The bandings cover a range, and it can often be the case that the true viscosity of one "40" oil will be only juts a little thicker than another "30" rated oil. For example Castrol Power1 oils tend to be at the low end of the bandings typically, so their 10W40 is only just thicker than the top of the 30 banding when hot and it would be perfectly OK to use their 10W40 where a 10W30 is recommended. Other manufacturers may make their oils at different ends of the bandings.

 

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SteveThackery

Marvellous summary - thanks, embee.

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Perfect analysis! 

Thanks!

It is safe to use some (Valvoline synPower) full-synthetic oil that was sitting for 3 or 4 years on the shelf  ?

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embee

Not an oil I'm familiar with, but a quick look shows it is a motorcycle specific JASO-MA2 spec so absolutely fine from that point of view. I believe there are guidelines for shelf life of oils though I can't say it's something I know much about, but at 4yrs it should be absolutely fine, I would use it if it was there on the shelf if it is a suitable viscosity.

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On 3/5/2019 at 02:27, embee said:

I believe there are guidelines for shelf life of oils though I can't say it's something I know much about, but at 4yrs it should be absolutely fine, I would use it if it was there on the shelf if it is a suitable viscosity.

My concern is that after 4 years on the shelf, the oil has undergone some changes (perhaps very small) in the composition and is not suitable for use even if it is full synthetic.

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Andy m

The component parts were in the ground for billions of years, the natural stuff for millions. Why would an air tight sealed black plastic bottle not do it's stuff for four? 

 

You are over thinking what you don't understand and wasting money and the worlds resources in the process if you plan to throw everything away that isn't seemingly brand new (the oil companies BTW run huge batches of specialised oils and distribute them over years anyway). 

 

Andy

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