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fred_jb

It's official - I'm getting a BMW R1250RS!

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fred_jb
Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Trev said:

Fred, thanks for the interesting and informative info and experience of active suspension (and other gadgets). A very good friend of mine has just traded his 2015 XR1000 BM (the semi adventure four thing?) for a 2018 ex-demo with one of the main reasons he cites being the improved ESA,  auto blipper and leaning ABS and reckons there is a significant improvement. He keeps trying to persuade me that I need such things in my life but I've told him when he eschews half baked 'auto' clutch gear changing for DCT then perhaps I'll worry about leaning ABS and needing to programme the bike before I set off :whistle:

 

Yes BMW keep improving their ESA suspension technology, though it is very difficult to tell which one you have on any given bike unless you virtually have a degree in BMW spec sheet reading, not helped by them bringing out an improved version of the ESA then doing stupid things like referring to it as ESA Next Generation, rather than give it a definite version number! Will we get Next Next Generation next time? As another example, they did some gearbox improvements on the GS, but the the only outward sign between two apparently identical bikes of which one has the improved gearbox and which doesn't is that it coincided with EURO 4 mandated reflectors on the fork legs - so reflectors = new gearbox, no reflectors = old gearbox!

 

Any technology or spec changes for the next model year only happen for bikes built after the factory shutdown in August but these are then sold as MY XX (model year) where XX is the following year for those bikes built up until the end of December. Just to keep you on your toes, they sometimes do another change 6 months into the model year, i.e. in March, so my bike was a MY17.5!  I am a bit of a nerd about these things, but there are numerous examples of people on the GS forums being sold old version bikes without them realising because they just haven't done their homework - though to be fair BMW seem to deliberately make it as difficult as possible to cross-reference different model year specs by vanishing all trace of last years bikes from their websites once the new model year is out.

 

I had the lean sensitive ABS and TC on my GS but I'm afraid it was never called into action with my sedate and conservative riding style!  Similarly I had the quickshifter with autoblipper for downshifts and some sort of intervention to kill the ignition for a few milliseconds on full power upshifts so as to unload the transmission slightly despite not using the clutch.   However my mechanical sympathies stopped me using this routinely after I had tried it a few times to make sure it worked.  I did use the downshift occasionally because it operated on a closed throttle, but I could not bring myself to use it for upshifts.  I regard it as a bodge compared to an auto-clutch system like DCT which actually properly disconnects the engine from transmission during gear changes.

 

Edited by fred_jb
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Tex
2 hours ago, Rev Ken said:

I was chatting to a couple of AA patrol men who told me they enjoyed recovering GS bikes that fell off Hardnott Pass!

 

To be fair, though, it wasn’t the bikes that fell off it was the riders.. ;) 

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Trev
6 minutes ago, fred_jb said:

 

Yes BMW keep improving their ESA suspension technology, though it is very difficult to tell which one you have on any given bike unless you virtually have a degree in BMW spec sheet reading, ssion during gear changes.

 

My mate has, I think first class with honours and it fuels his desire for 'the latest, much improved, version' and disenchantment with 'the old, always compromised, version' in equal measure. I try to remind him we grew up riding bikes where you were lucky to have adjustable preload and that his 2015 XR was probably more than ok (he certainly thought it was the dog danglies when he got it) but I fear he is too far gone now, poor soul :D

 

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fred_jb
5 minutes ago, Tex said:

 

To be fair, though, it wasn’t the bikes that fell off it was the riders.. ;) 

 

Anne and myself watched the The Missenden Flyer's video of him tackling that pass, and he was fine with it, but he was obviously fretting about the prospect of tackling hairpin bends, seemingly for the first time, while chatting on his way there.  Anne, despite being a relatively recent convert to biking, found this highly amusing as her first real bike tour was our trip to Greece which entailed hundreds of hairpin bends on sometimes subsiding or badly maintained roads, so she now feels she is a veteran, especially after the tour leader told us that this was his most demanding tour and he was surprised we chose it for Anne's first trip!

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Tex
2 minutes ago, Trev said:

 

My mate has, I think first class with honours and it fuels his desire for 'the latest, much improved, version' and disenchantment with 'the old, always compromised, version' in equal measure. I try to remind him we grew up riding bikes where you were lucky to have adjustable preload and that his 2015 XR was probably more than ok (he certainly thought it was the dog danglies when he got it) but I fear he is too far gone now, poor soul :D

 

 

Yep, I have a mate exactly like that. He’s ‘into’ the S1000R and sold his (mint) red one to buy the latest model (white). Now he’s fretting because they are using the slide cam/shift cam/whatever it’s bloody called cam in the four cylinder bikes so he has to have one of those! ;) 

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fred_jb
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Tex said:

 

Yep, I have a mate exactly like that. He’s ‘into’ the S1000R and sold his (mint) red one to buy the latest model (white). Now he’s fretting because they are using the slide cam/shift cam/whatever it’s bloody called cam in the four cylinder bikes so he has to have one of those! ;) 

 

Yep - it is a treadmill which it is easy to get sucked into, but hard to get off!

 

Unusually all the LC boxer engined BMs are getting the new 1250cc boxer Shiftcam engine for the 2019 model year - usually the GS gets stuff like this first, followed by the GS Adventure a year later, and other models, sometime later or even never. Being by now a keen observer of this feature drip feed tactic, I had another reason not to go for a new GS because although it got the new engine and other improvements there were no changes to the bodywork, which apart from some small tweaks for the MY17.5 bike I had, has not really changed since 2013 when the liquid cooled model was introduced. You can therefore bet that the 2020 model year GS will have a massive overhaul of the bodywork and styling, so that despite having the new engine MY19 owners will then feel the urge to upgrade.  I feel reasonably safe in choosing the RS, since as as well as the new engine and all the other improvements which the GS got, it has also had a bodywork redesign - makes it look a bit like my Versys 1000 from the front, but hey-ho, at least I can't see it changing again next year!

 

Edited by fred_jb

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Woody 99
1 hour ago, SteveThackery said:

 

Am I right in thinking it's essentially the same bike as my F800?  If so, then I agree with you about the stalling - it's a bloody nuisance and there's definitely something weird about it.  It's almost as if something deliberately cuts the engine once it gets below a certain rpm.  

 

1st gear is too high - with a torque curve that flat they could easily have spaced the gears a bit more widely and made it much easier to use.  But it's not just about the gearing - I think it definitely has something to do with the engine ECU as well.  Quite a few Japanese sports bikes have a really high first gear, but none of them have such a reputation for stalling as the BMW.

 

With practice it is possible to avoid it - plenty of revs and very careful feeding out of the clutch when taking off - but I don't think it should be necessary.  I'd love to get to the bottom of it.

If I remember correctly, the F700 and the F800 had the same engine but were slightly differently specced. Even the instructor stalled the bloody thing three times, once as we were pulling away from a junction. I thought we were done for, for a minute. I was so depressed after my first lesson that I seriously wondered if I was making a big mistake taking up motorbiking at the age of 57. Thankfully, Honda san not onlyrestored my faith but also rebuilt my confidence. Not even I can stall a DCT. 🤪

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Tex

 

1 hour ago, SteveThackery said:

With practice it is possible to avoid it - plenty of revs and very careful feeding out of the clutch when taking off - but I don't think it should be necessary.  I'd love to get to the bottom of it.

 

I suspect the flywheel is too light. One of the improvements on the wife’s latest Yaris is reduced flywheel weight (to allow the revs to build quicker). A by product is that it’s stupidly easy to stall. Flywheel weight is a balancing act (flywheel? balancing? Geddit? Oh, suit yourselves..) :D 

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Ciaran1602
22 minutes ago, Tex said:

 

 

I suspect the flywheel is too light. One of the improvements on the wife’s latest Yaris is reduced flywheel weight (to allow the revs to build quicker). A by product is that it’s stupidly easy to stall. Flywheel weight is a balancing act (flywheel? balancing? Geddit? Oh, suit yourselves..) :D 

 

This might explain why I can’t reverse my new car, a new Astra 1.4 turbo, out of a space without stalling the sodding thing at least twice. I am by no means technical but I would guess the latest eco thinking would be reducing any friction anywhere in the drive train is a good thing whether it’s to reduce resistance or to let you get up to cruising speed as quickly and effortlessly as possible. 

 

The car must be asking whether a greenhorn bought it the number of times I’ve stalled it :lol:

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Andy m
Posted (edited)

Light weight is less metal, less cost and easier to achieve emissions so they are all at it. 

 

You have to love the Bavarian Muppet Works marketing strategy. They are complicated, less reliable than some and have a warranty department run by Dr. No, so the consumers buy extended warranties, effectively a price increase or a new bike. They make constant changes which they encourage their customers to play top trumps over this driving demand, but also making them more complex and less reliable. The costs are a few cups of coffee and decorating the show rooms, the rest is pretty much free as you pay engineers salaries regardless of them turning out a half tested new item and moving on, or improving current product. You couldn't ask for more without getting into guns and Colombian white powder. 

 

Andy

Edited by Andy m
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Ciaran1602

If I didn’t know better Andy I might call you a cynic :angel:

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Mr Toad
11 hours ago, Tex said:

 

Yep, I have a mate exactly like that. He’s ‘into’ the S1000R and sold his (mint) red one to buy the latest model (white). Now he’s fretting because they are using the slide cam/shift cam/whatever it’s bloody called cam in the four cylinder bikes so he has to have one of those! ;) 

 

Yes but without these sort of people I'd be completely shafted. I don't buy new, I wait for serial upgraders like your mate to splash the cash then buy the bikes they longer want second hand and save myself a bundle of the folding stuff. 

 

It was no accident that I got a cracking deal on my 2016 GS, people like like your mate were bailing off the 1200s to get a 1250 with unicorn cams faster than a greased weasel.  

 

Long may they continue to power the hamster wheel of consumerism so I and others can benefit from the goodies that drop through the bars.

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Tex

 

13 minutes ago, Mr Toad said:

Long may they continue to power the hamster wheel of consumerism so I and others can benefit from the goodies that drop through the bars.

 

Oh, absolutely! My T100 came to me five months old with 53 (!) miles on it. It was actually much shinier than the new bike it was parked next to at the dealership because the owner had been busy with the polish. Saved me the thick end of a grand (enough to pay for a trip to the Picos for me and my boy :niceone:).

 

If I could have justified the outlay I would have loved Fred’s GS. Bloody loved it. But a guy has to know when to stop (says Mrs T)..

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macamx
Posted (edited)

Just a little tip that I now use to try and control my consumerist tendencies. And for big-ticket items i.e. cars and bikes it seems to work for me. If considering say a car @ £24k, it's actual price is £20k but then tax in the form of VAT is added making it £24k. Now I don't know about anyone else but if a tax demand for £4k dropped through my letterbox I would be horrified. Apply this to most bikes these days and it equates to a self-inflicted tax bill of £2 to 3k. Now that tends to focus my mind a wee bit.

 

Geoff.

Edited by macamx
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Tex
2 hours ago, Ciaran1602 said:

If I didn’t know better Andy I might call you a cynic :angel:

 

Our, esteemed, friend Andy has actually raised cynicism to an art form. ;) 

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fred_jb

I generally follow Tex's example with cars and buy nearly new.   I bought our Zafira Tourer at 6 months old and 5000 miles after it had been a manager's car at the dealer.   It had a high spec and lots of options making the list price over £26k, but I got it for just under £17k and have been very pleased with it.  The problem is that to me bikes are different somehow - the car is more of a utilitarian, almost distress purchase, as it is for many people, and the bike is a fun thing which I want to be as perfect as possible, and I know some non-rider petrolheads have the same attitude to their cars and will buy high spec vehicles and then lavish mods and enhancements on them.   Unfortunately, the mainly male impulse to do this sort of thing with our toys is ruthlessly exploited by the manufacturers!

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Andy m
Posted (edited)

I can understand the drive for a "perfect" bike. Next time I get one there will be a discussion about the new bike coming with decent tyres. I've sort of decided I lost 6 months against my MOT clock by not having PR-4's from the day it was run in and I'd got used to it. I know I have to buy or plan to move across the mudguard extender, hugger and mirror extensions as the new ones will be hopeless . These I know make a difference based on experience. I cannot however bring myself to believe that New Persil is going to make my clothes even whiter than Improved Persil did 3 weeks ago or New Improved Persil 5 weeks ago. Even if it did, is my current level of whiteness that much of an issue, I'm not exactly at the stage of bashing my shorts on a rock by the river? (I wonder if anyone ever did trade a Ural for a K1600LT?).

 

I wonder where BMW will take this? They go bust (or have a close call) on average every 25 years. Last time it was trying to design a bike new customers wanted based on what current customers told them. Airhead owners didn't really want the Bricks designed around their specs, Brick customers didn't want Oilheads, no one wanted F650's once they'd tried to use one. They had to go through a phase of producing the old stodgy bikes alongside the ultra tech ones and rebadged Aprillias. The "reliable" tag helped, but the backlash of expectation against reality only grows with that one. When your £25000 bike disappears from the website and one like it is discounted in the showroom when you take it for the first service will you be happy? Will they offer two levels of extended warranty, standard where everything is your fault or Executive where they give you a coffee and tell you it's your fault?  I'm betting the next move will be like a phone contract with upgrade options? Will they flash the software and put new bodywork on your 6 month old "Pre-upgrade" and offer them as a budget version?

 

Andy

 

 

 

 

Edited by Andy m
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fred_jb
Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Andy m said:

I can understand the drive for a "perfect" bike. Next time there will be a discussion about the new bike coming with decent tyres. I've sort of decided I lost 6 months against my MOT clock by not having PR-4's from the day it was run in and I'd got used to it. I know I have to buy or plan to move across the mudguard extender, hugger and mirror extensions as the new ones will be hopeless . These I know make a difference based on experience. I cannot however bring myself to believe that New Persil is going to make my clothes even whiter than Improved Persil did 3 weeks ago or New Improved Persil 5 weeks ago. Even if it did, is my current level of whiteness that much of an issue, I'm not exactly at the stage of bashing my shorts on a rock by the river? (I wonder if anyone ever did trade a Ural for a K1600LT?).

 

I wonder where BMW will take this? They go bust (or have a close call) on average every 25 years. Last time it was trying to design a bike new customers wanted based on what current customers told them. Airhead owners didn't really want the Bricks designed around their specs, Brick customers didn't want Oilheads, no one wanted F650's once they'd tried to use one. They had to go through a phase of producing the old stodgy bikes alongside the ultra tech ones and rebadged Aprillias. The "reliable" tag helped, but the backlash of expectation against reality only grows with that one. When your £25000 bike disappears from the website and one like it is discounted in the showroom when you take it for the first service will you be happy? Will they offer two levels of extended warranty, standard where everything is your fault or Executive where they give you a coffee and tell you it's your fault?  I'm betting the next move will be like a phone contract with upgrade options? Will they flash the software and put new bodywork on your 6 month old "Pre-upgrade" and offer them as a budget version?

 

Andy

 

 

 

 

 

Just like software companies are moving from the outright purchase model to a monthly/yearly subscription model, I think that will happen more and more with vehicles.  Microsoft Office is now mainly subscription based via Office 365 and even Windows 10 is effectively this model, they just haven't gotten around to imposing any charges for the now quarterly major updates, but no doubt they will at some point.  For vehicles, PCP plans and leasing are pretty much that model already, but I remember reading somewhere a mention that BMW have an actual bike rental scheme in some markets, but I couldn't find any evidence of this on the UK website.  There will probably come a point where you either cannot buy a new bike outright, or the pricing will mean it no longer makes financial sense to do so, though I'm not sure what they will do with all the ex-rental and ex-PCP bikes, probably just crush them - they will probably be built to only last 3 years max by that stage anyway!

 

 

Edited by fred_jb
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fred_jb
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, macamx said:

Just a little tip that I now use to try and control my consumerist tendencies. And for big-ticket items i.e. cars and bikes it seems to work for me. If considering say a car @ £24k, it's actual price is £20k but then tax in the form of VAT is added making it £24k. Now I don't know about anyone else but if a tax demand for £4k dropped through my letterbox I would be horrified. Apply this to most bikes these days and it equates to a self-inflicted tax bill of £2 to 3k. Now that tends to focus my mind a wee bit.

 

Geoff.

 

It's the same thing only worse every time you fill up with petrol, as I believe you are then not only paying VAT on the fuel itself, but also on the massive excise duty that is levied on it.  Only seeing the VAT inclusive prices means the manufacturers are not quite as grasping as the headline on the road prices might imply.

 

Edited by fred_jb

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macamx
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, fred_jb said:

 

It's the same thing only worse every time you fill up with petrol, as I believe you are then not only paying VAT on the fuel itself, but also on the massive excise duty that is levied on it.  Only seeing the VAT inclusive prices means the manufacturers are not quite as grasping as the headline on the road prices might imply.

 

 

I think it's even worse than that Fred, I believe that they apply the duty then have the audacity to charge the vat, effectively taxing you on the tax already applied. I do however stand to be corrected on this.

 

Geoff.

 

Just checked this.

 

Fuel duty is currently levied at a flat rate of 57.95p per litre for both petrol and diesel, while VAT at 20% is then charged on both the product price and the duty.

Edited by macamx
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fred_jb
Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, macamx said:

 

I think it's even worse than that Fred, I believe that they apply the duty then have the audacity to charge the vat, effectively taxing you on the tax already applied. I do however stand to be corrected on this.

 

Geoff.

 

Just checked this.

 

Fuel duty is currently levied at a flat rate of 57.95p per litre for both petrol and diesel, while VAT at 20% is then charged on both the product price and the duty.

 

That is exactly what I meant though maybe didn't express clearly enough.  The same thing happens when you buys good from non-EU countries, they levy any import duty, add that to the cost of the goods, and charge 20% VAT on the lot.

Edited by fred_jb

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Andy m

I think the phone purchase model has some problem for vehicles but they will try and get closer. There are enough of us who know you need better tyres and maybe better shocks and a few other add-ons to make them work. It's the equivalent of rooting (if I understand the term correctly) your phone. The manufacturers don't like it because it sets a standard that is out of their control. If Michelin know you'll reject a plan on Dunlops, the days of the 0.00001% margin OE tyre are over. Probably production can handle a lot more choice though and it'll be Dunlops now vs. Michelins in 6 weeks in the same way you can always get the white phone but not the titanium one.

 

The disposal of the pre-upgrade vehicles will be designed in. They have to design to recycle now, so why not design them so a reverse production line can take them to bits and re-use things like the crankshaft in a new engine? This also leads to the engine without a drain plug because it'll do 3 years on the oil they put in before fitting the cylinder block. This will be part of the sales pitch to get the early adopters "No run-in, no servicing, just hand it in when your plan expires".

 

The whole idea matches the theory that the market cannot grow, we've all got enough, but can turn faster. Hamster wheel indeed.

 

Andy 

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macamx
32 minutes ago, fred_jb said:

 

That is exactly what I meant though maybe didn't express clearly enough.  The same thing happens when you buys good from non-EU countries, they levy any import duty, add that to the cost of the goods, and charge 20% VAT on the lot.

 

Now if you or I pulled stunts like that we would be called "scammers" and rightly so.

 

Geoff.

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baben
Posted (edited)

Apple have seen their share price plummet because people have wised up and are no longer upgrading their phones every month. especially since it was discovered that a new battery rejuvenated an old phone like monkey glands on an American tycoon. Letter in MSL today explaining what a disaster zone pcp is becoming. My car was a year old with 2000 miles on the clock and about half price of a new one. I think the resellers are going to hit serious crap sometime soon. I would only replace Tigger if they can make a new one 20kg lighter.....with mudguards.

Edited by baben
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Andy m
Posted (edited)

What's the PCP issue? Build up of 18 month old bikes depressing the market to the point you end up with no bike and a bill for what you'll already had if you want to swap? 

 

I might investigate keeping the CB if I can find a mechanic who understands the phrase "Don't ring me with tales of strident horns and mysteriously blow bulbs, just bring me an MOT'd bike and a bill" 

 

Andy

Edited by Andy m

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