Downshifting gears

[Guest henryg]

Novice rider here.  I am making a terrible job of down shifting the gears especially from 3 to 2 when slowing down.  Really banging  it into gear quite a lot of the time.  Pretty convinced it is not the bike but me!  Trying to do all the usual stuff blipping the throttle and shift at same time.  I do get the odd one fairly smooth and wondering if anyone has any tips.  I learnt on a suzuki and dont recall being so bad at the downshift.  Not sure if flicking the gear shifter too hard or too lightly or indeed if just need practice.  thanks to anyone who replies I

[Andy m 23,440]

I've never blipped a throttle in my life. Horrible racer wannabe habit. 

 

You are rushing. Close the throttle until the revs start to die, clutch in, the revs should not rise, the engine will idle as you coast, down on the gear lever, slip the clutch and feed in the power. Hold the gear lever down until the clutch is all the way out if it helps with coordination or you've traded for a transverse twin with shaft drive and a John Deere gearbox. 

 

Andy

Edited March 27, 2019 by Andy m

[Bigglesaircraft 293]

Not fully sure of how your process of shifting to a lower year is different to the way that I shift gear. I do not have any problems at all and so gears are very smooth going down the box, additionally going up the box I frequently do not use the clutch at all. My only suggestion is to check that the clutch is correctly adusted, or are you using the correct oil and has it been changed at the recommended intervals, there should be no need to blip the throttle with the modern engines/gearbox particularly on such a low revving engine on the NC.

[Spindizzy 7,109]

Maybe you are changing too early, if its a big rev change between gears it can clunk a bit. I don't bother blipping my NC as its too sluggish to do much anyway.

 

Its a pretty agricultural box, clunk away.

[Jeffprince 4,921]

Blipping the throttle is unnecessary. That goes back to the days of non-synchromesh gears, unless you are looking to pose! Otherwise, it's a case of matching the gear to the speed, which comes with practice. Make sure the clutch lever is fully back and use a positive foot motion. The fact that it's only 3rd to 2nd would suggest your clutch is set up ok, although checking it fully disengages is a simple test (stick it in gear and see where the take-up point is when releasing the lever). The NC can be a pain to find neutral, however...any problems with that?

[MikeBike 5,005]

I found the following improved my gearshifting dramatically. They became smoother, more efficient and faster than I could ever have previously hoped to achieve.

Step 1: Got a DCT

Step 2 (optional): Press "-" or "+" if/when required

 

[Guest henryg]

Lol......it may come to that..hopefully not 

[Guest henryg]

Thanks folks.....potentially been watching to many you ube videos on how to change gears smoothly.  No wannabe racer here so will go back to basics.  Cheers

[Trev 18,553]

That's what learning on a Suzuki and switching to a Honda does for you, slick v clunk 

 

Seriously though, some good advice on here,  I would add that make sure you're not trying to change down too early, you're really only going to need second for pretty low speeds or when coming to a halt in which case you should be changing down into it at 10-15mph (is that about right manual NC owners?) 

Edited March 27, 2019 by Trev

[neojynx 722]

Don't use your gears to slow you down (under normal conditions), thats what brakes are for, or throttle off.  You should be in the right gear for your speed, so slow down using brakes and then shift down a gear once the bike speed is down enough to match the engine speed.

 

No need for the blippy crap..

Edited March 27, 2019 by neojynx

[Guest henryg]

Thanks ....suspect changing too early and doing the unnecessary blip thing. Generally find neutral OK and clutch set up seems fine.  It is me over thinking it having been told to blip bla bla bla

[Ciaran 6,880]

14 minutes ago, Trev said:

That's what learning on a Suzuki and switching to a Honda does for you, slick v clunk 

 

Seriously though, some good advice on here,  I would add that make sure you're not trying to change down too early, you're really only going to need second for pretty low speeds or when coming to a halt in which case you should be changing down into it at 10-15mph (is that about right manual NC owners?) 

 

I'd say so, I'd probably drop to 2nd slightly earlier but I'm used to using engine braking a lot.

Honda's gearboxes on the manual bikes I've ridden are...rubbish, frankly. Perfectly functional of course but they're clunky, obstinate and awkward, certainly they haven't held a candle to any Yamaha I have owned in the past. My best advice would be not to rush; don't worry about perfecting the super smooth up or downshifts you see on youtube, if you take your time to click up or down then take your time. 

[Andy m 23,440]

26 minutes ago, Ciaran1602 said:

 

Honda's gearboxes on the manual bikes I've ridden are...rubbish, frankly. Perfectly functional of course but they're clunky, obstinate and awkward, 

 

I'd cross BMW and Guzzi off your wish list 😁😁😁

 

You know how they train CPR with that Gee-Bee's song? We'll for a Guzzi gear-change it's similar but the song is by the Worzels and about pristine farm machinery!. 

 

Andy

[Spindizzy 7,109]

2 minutes ago, Andy m said:

 

I'd cross BMW and Guzzi off your wish list 😁😁😁

 

You know how they train CPR with that Gee-Bee's song? We'll for a Guzzi gear-change it's similar but the song is by the Worzels and about pristine farm machinery!. 

 

Andy

I heard some people modify Guzzis to a suicide shift.....just for the leverage 

[Trev 18,553]

41 minutes ago, Andy m said:

 

I'd cross BMW and Guzzi off your wish list 😁😁😁

 

You know how they train CPR with that Gee-Bee's song? We'll for a Guzzi gear-change it's similar but the song is by the Worzels and about pristine farm machinery!. 

 

Andy

 

I was expecting the same with Guzzi but the change on both my V7 and Griso are exceptionally smooth, when selecting first from neutral I often have to do the little 'let the clutch out a bit thing' as honestly can't tell whether it's snicked in. None of the jap bikes, with the possible exception of the jewel like wonder on the Suzuki X7, are as good. Clutchless are a doddle both up and down. Honestly, really, I'm not telling porkies 

Andy, was your older V7 really a clunky old thing?

 

[Tonyj 6,907]

Suzuki boxes were always the best on my moto x bikes. Can’t reme what the ts250 box was like ?

first ride on my cbr 600 ,first road bike again . Throttle up , roll off . Clutch in ,  first to bang/clunk second ........ me wtf I’ve broke it ........ Na mate they all do that :0)

Edited March 27, 2019 by Tonyj

[Spindizzy 7,109]

Honda VFR-750 had a decent gearbox, really sweet andno clunks.

 

Everything else I ever rode was agricultural. The NC is comparable to my old Kawasaki ER-5.

[neil700 72]

Sound advice as always. In my experience on my 2nd NC, they are just a bit clunky. I do find that a little bit of pre-load on the lever going both up and down the box helps a ton and just take your time. They don’t like being rushed 

[makman 975]

I used to change clutchless on the CBF500 very smoothly from 2nd to 6th. Gearbox was fine and small blip was all it ever needed. Same on the Triumphs, Suzuki and Yamaha.  Mechanical sympathy I guess, you will have to match revs to time of change, that is what is important.  Too high or low and it will clunck, grate, thud, lockup and grumple.

[Andy m 23,440]

10 hours ago, Trev said:

 

Andy, was your older V7 really a clunky old thing?

 

 

It was average when warm, not as bad as a BMW oil head but a dog when cold or hot. Second to first after a good run over the passes could be difficult. It's a good job they'll pull away in third. 

 

The loaner I had while they did my warranty work was an utter dog. Going down from anything below third was an alternative to the kill switch and explained why the back tyre was like a 50 pence piece. 

 

Based on a sample of three I'd say it depends which day they built it and possibly who ground the clutch rod? 

 

Andy

[Tex 36,816]

 

10 hours ago, Trev said:

Andy, was your older V7 really a clunky old thing?

 

 

I rather imagine (hope, anyway) that the updated (six gears, not five) box will shift better as a matter of course. Most newer designs work better than older ones, eh? But, then again, it’s Italian..  

[Derm 380]

Follow neojynx advice, slow down using the brakes, that is what they are intended for and then take the gear for the speed you are going to require. Try reading the Police Roadcraft manual.

[SteveThackery 3,090]

It's important to remember that blipping the throttle does not affect the gearchange in any way.  What it does is help match the speeds of the driving and driven plates in the clutch, so when you release the clutch there is less of a jerk.

 

This is because when you've pulled the clutch in, the engine is disconnected from the gearbox, so nothing you do with the throttle* will affect the actual process of changing the gears in the gearbox.  This is very basic mechanics, but surprisingly many riders don't realise it.

 

When you are changing down a gear the engine needs speeding up slightly if you want a smooth re-engagement of the clutch.  However, blipping is the worst way to do it - far better to hold the throttle open just the right amount (which will be just off closed) such that the engine speed rises smoothly and gently to the correct speed while you are operating the gear lever.

 

It does take some practice to do it smoothly, but it's well worth practising.  Do it really slowly at first until you are completely on top of it, and then you will naturally begin to do it more quickly.

 

*If the clutch is maladjusted such that it drags a lot then of course the gearbox won't be completely free of the engine, and the engine speed will affect the gearchange.  But it sounds like your clutch frees the drive properly.

 

 

Edited March 28, 2019 by SteveThackery

[SteveThackery 3,090]

PS: I hope you're not one of those people who constantly blips the throttle when waiting at a junction!  Another thing that utterly puzzles me is the habit of giving two or three quick blips of the throttle before pulling away.  WTF???

[SteveThackery 3,090]

PPS: Just a final tip.  I recommend you keep the pressure on the gear lever until you've let out the clutch all the way.  Then you can release the lever.  So the sequence is:

 

Pull in the clutch - - press-and-hold the gear lever - - when the engine speed is matched, release the clutch - - release the gear lever.

 

Bike gearboxes use sliding dogs which engage with each other.  Occasionally the dogs will meet "head-to-head" and stay that way, such that pressing further on the lever won't bring them into engagement.  If you release the pressure on the lever, and then let out the clutch, a lot of the time the dogs will just spin rather than falling into engagement, giving you a missed gear.  If you keep gentle pressure on the lever, the dogs will drop into engagement when you release the clutch.

 

Some gearboxes are more prone to this than others.  A lot depends on the detent mechanism which holds the gearbox in each gear.  The old British bikes were quite prone to missed gears; if the dogs met head-to-head there was generally very little "push" from the detent mechanism, so the dogs wouldn't normally drop into engagement unless you helped them with pressure on the lever, so the method I've described above is routine on the older British stuff.  It also helps a lot on my Enfield.

 

The boxes on Japanese bikes seem less prone to misses - the detent mechanism is strong enough to make the gears snick into engagement even without help from pressure on the lever.  However, everybody botches a gearchange occasionally, so I recommend adopting the above method routinely on every bike.  It does no harm and guarantees no missed gears.