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Downshifting gears


Guest henryg

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suffolk58

Garry (above) is right: "Brakes to slow, gears to go" is the old maxim.

 

As for "interesting" gear changes, I did once borrow a Harley Davidson Road King. It did change gear alright (once I got used to the heel and toe changer) but I got the impression that the chap you used to see at the start of old Rank films was inside the gearbox, hammering the cogs with his mallet.

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I found the following improved my gearshifting dramatically. They became smoother, more efficient and faster than I could ever have previously hoped to achieve. Step 1: Got a DCT Step 2 (opt

This thread is teetering on the abyss, oil already mentioned and we'll be onto the California race blokes run in by 20 miles at full throttle any second now!     The thing will all such info

Auto blippers are fun! Then, after about 10 miles, become boring..     They’re part of the ‘performance obsession’ that create road bikes that would have won a Moto GP race ten years ago and

Trev
2 hours ago, Andy m said:

 

It was average when warm, not as bad as a BMW oil head but a dog when cold or hot. Second to first after a good run over the passes could be difficult. It's a good job they'll pull away in third. 

 

The loaner I had while they did my warranty work was an utter dog. Going down from anything below third was an alternative to the kill switch and explained why the back tyre was like a 50 pence piece. 

 

Based on a sample of three I'd say it depends which day they built it and possibly who ground the clutch rod? 

 

Andy

 

That's so different from both my Guzzi's, I just assumed it was something Guzzi really got right, maybe I've got the only good two!

 

My weird thinking is that as they have a sort of separate gearbox and don't have all the faff ass external linkages that jap bikes seem to have these days, that helps them be so much smoother. Seriously, absolutely no issue with either, cold or when warmed up, in selecting any gear, clutchless is  easy and selecting first from standstill, even when just started, it is genuinely difficult to tell whether or not it has gone into gear.

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29 minutes ago, Trev said:

Seriously, absolutely no issue with either, cold or when warmed up, in selecting any gear, clutchless is  easy and selecting first from standstill, even when just started, it is genuinely difficult to tell whether or not it has gone into gear.

 

Question for those clever ones among us - why do Jap bikes (and Triumphs) always ‘CLUNK!’ into first? I hate it!

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Rocker66
17 minutes ago, Tex said:

 

 

Question for those clever ones among us - why do Jap bikes (and Triumphs) always ‘CLUNK!’ into first? I hate it!

I remember with old Brit bikes we used to kick it over a couple of times before switching on just to free the clutch.

I remember one of the really satisfying in motorcycling being getting a clunk free change on a airhead Beemer.😀

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Ciaran
34 minutes ago, Tex said:

 

 

Question for those clever ones among us - why do Jap bikes (and Triumphs) always ‘CLUNK!’ into first? I hate it!

 

I never really had a problem with my Yamaha with this but every Honda I’ve had doesn’t just thunk, it visibly shudders. People must think I’m abusing the poor thing!

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sad vampire

Ages ago (circa 1988) I bought a Honda MTX125 & it was very difficult to change gears either up or down, until I discovered that it was massively overfilled with oil.

 

Once the oil overfilled by dealer problem was sorted out by draining it & refilling with the exact amount suggested in the owners manual, that bike had superslick gear changes, & the clutch was pretty much optional.

 

So, check your oil level just in case, it doesn't cost anything to do & it's another possible to eliminate.

 

As for all these Guzzi clutch stories, you just need to use two hands to pull the clutch lever properly :blink: A very heavy dry clutch mechanism combined with a gearbox that benefitted with a home brewed oil mix made up of one part Kalamata olive oil to two parts Italian light oilive oil. Just remember though, the Guzzis have so much torque that you only need to change gears a couple of times a day. Oh, don't get me started about false neutrals & suicide stands on Guzzis... meh!

 

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stephenmcg
17 hours ago, henryg said:

Novice rider here.  I am making a terrible job of down shifting the gears especially from 3 to 2 when slowing down.  Really banging  it into gear quite a lot of the time.  Pretty convinced it is not the bike but me!  Trying to do all the usual stuff blipping the throttle and shift at same time.  I do get the odd one fairly smooth and wondering if anyone has any tips.  I learnt on a suzuki and dont recall being so bad at the downshift.  Not sure if flicking the gear shifter too hard or too lightly or indeed if just need practice.  thanks to anyone who replies I

Henry, my guess as to your name

i could not reply earlier as I just seem to change gear with out any set procedure.

i am just back from a 15 mile run in Glasgow and decided to try and record what I do. Most of this run was stop start, lights, queues etc.

when approaching lights etc I obviously release throttle and keep going, i then pull clutch and flick down as many gears as necessary.

i can leave it in second if lights change so I do not need to stop, give a half flick if I want to go into neutral, or go all the way to one if I want to be ready to go when lights change.

i realise that I will have to go for a different run in afternoon to see what I do on the open road.

i will add to this reply later.

this of course is my style and it must suit me.

i am sure with you, practice makes perfect

smcg in dry glasgow

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steelhorseuk
Quote

"Honda's gearboxes on the manual bikes I've ridden are...rubbish, frankly. Perfectly functional of course but they're clunky, obstinate and awkward, "

 

Interesting, I must have been lucky with my NC700SA (2012) as the gearbox is really smooth in all gears. Perhaps its my oil that make the difference.

(Castrol Power One Racing 10w/30) I am fastidious about checking/changing it though, perhaps that has been paying off.

 

Even into first gear its smooth, I always have the drive chain (D.I.D 520/114 VXD X-Ring Gold) setup perfectly though which must also really help. 

 

 

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embee
1 hour ago, Steel Horse UK said:

 

….. Perhaps its my oil that make the difference.

(Castrol Power One Racing 10w/30) …….

 

One of the reasons I use Castrol Power One (the semi-synth version) is that it does seem to allow clutches to free off reasonably easily. My Deauville clutch frees off very well, the SV650 isn't quite as clean when cold but fine when hot.

OP - Also make sure you don't over-fill, that can make gearshifts worse. If possible run it just under the max mark when checking, definitely not over. As long as it's between the marks it'll be fine, you can try it down nearer the min just to see what effect it has on gearshifts, if any.

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Grumpy old man

I must admit to blipping on downshifts I even tend to do it in the car after years of double clutching on crash change gear boxes it just becomes natural. So can you tell me why some bikes come with auto blippers, must admit I'm not quite sure what they are or what they do.

 

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Trev
14 minutes ago, Grumpy old man said:

I must admit to blipping on downshifts I even tend to do it in the car after years of double clutching on crash change gear boxes it just becomes natural. So can you tell me why some bikes come with auto blippers, must admit I'm not quite sure what they are or what they do.

 

 

I think it also depends what bikes you learned to ride on, I was a two stroke kiddie, and down changes were usually made to keep the thing in the power band and hence at reasonably high revs, a blip not only helped smooth the change (especially on the LC's with notoriously clunky change) but also helped keep the motor spinning and from dropping out of the power band..... and of course it sounded cool B)

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Dunnster
7 hours ago, Steel Horse UK said:

 

Interesting, I must have been lucky with my NC700SA (2012) as the gearbox is really smooth in all gears. Perhaps its my oil that make the difference.

(Castrol Power One Racing 10w/30) I am fastidious about checking/changing it though, perhaps that has been paying off.

 

 

 

 

DITTO :niceone:

However still a bit of a "clunk" into first. :D

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Guest henryg

Thanks ....suspect changing too early and doing the unnecessary blip thing. Generally find neutral OK and clutch set up seems fine.  It is me over thinking it having been told to blip bla bla bla

 

Update ; so much better today just shifting at more appropriate revs/speed.  TBH feel a bit of a tube now but rest easy Steve I never repeatedly blipped the throttle waiting at lights .  Honestly, check out you tube, every video about smooth gear changes talks about blipping throttle.  Anyway, appreciate all the replies!

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Mister Paul
9 hours ago, henryg said:

Thanks ....suspect changing too early and doing the unnecessary blip thing. Generally find neutral OK and clutch set up seems fine.  It is me over thinking it having been told to blip bla bla bla

 

Update ; so much better today just shifting at more appropriate revs/speed.  TBH feel a bit of a tube now but rest easy Steve I never repeatedly blipped the throttle waiting at lights .  Honestly, check out you tube, every video about smooth gear changes talks about blipping throttle.  Anyway, appreciate all the replies!

There's a whole load of mechanically-ignorant advice there on YouTube 

 

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Andy m

This thread is teetering on the abyss, oil already mentioned and we'll be onto the California race blokes run in by 20 miles at full throttle any second now! :devil: :angel:

 

The thing will all such information is knowing what the posters aim is. Most riders on here are leisure, touring and commuting riders. We want efficiency and reliability. I can sympathise to some extent with the "no clunk" people, but honestly if it's designed that way who cares for ten times a day, these gearboxes last 100000 miles easily, we aren't talking Enfields where a change of clunk possibly signals impending pedestrianism. I aren't changing the oil for such mechanical minutiae. The race people posting as "this is how you should do it" are basically just wrong and I have a lot less sympathy. Running something at 105% to gain the last 1% of performance is fine when you don't care about the state of it once the champagne cork pops. It is less fine when you need to go to work tomorrow as well. Race fashion is why we have useless mudguards and mirrors and brakes that run cold and chains that took 25 years to develop to a usable state.

 

Andy

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13 hours ago, Grumpy old man said:

I must admit to blipping on downshifts I even tend to do it in the car after years of double clutching on crash change gear boxes it just becomes natural. So can you tell me why some bikes come with auto blippers, must admit I'm not quite sure what they are or what they do.

 

 

Auto blippers are fun! Then, after about 10 miles, become boring.. ;) 

 

They’re part of the ‘performance obsession’ that create road bikes that would have won a Moto GP race ten years ago and are, for the most part, bought by people can’t hope to ever run one to it’s maximum. That would be 99% of us..

 

The quick shift is connected to the gear lever and kills the ignition ignition for a nanosecond when you change up (clutchless) which means you can hold the throttle wide open and not interrupt the drive to the rear wheel for more than is absolutely necessary. It’s worth a couple of tenths of a second a lap in a race. Not sure what it’s worth on the B276?

 

The auto blipper is run through the same software as allows you to close the throttle on the way into a bend and (again, without using the clutch) just tread down through the gears. The auto blip raises the revs to match the road speed so the gears slide in smoothly. The technology is wonderful and it’s huge fun to just jab at the controls like a moron and have the bike sort the mess out. Is it ‘progress’? I suppose so. Racers like it. Which means racer wannabes ‘must have’ it. And will pay handsomely for the privilege. 

 

The ultimate quick shift is (obviously) DCT but you’re not allowed to race those so they’ll never catch on.. :) 

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baben

Test riding the new MG on Wednesday so I'll be able to sample a modern Italian gearbox. Look out for my review. I will be comparing it with my Triumph.

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Trev
12 hours ago, Andy m said:

Race fashion is why we have useless mudguards and mirrors and brakes that run cold and chains that took 25 years to develop to a usable state.

 

Andy

 

Andy, an alternative view is that it's you commuters with your stick on mudflaps, bouncy suspension and endless calculating of mpg to the nth decimal point that means racers and road warriors need to junk half the frippery that a bike comes with and spend a small fortune on loud exhausts and engine remaps :whistle: :D

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listener
23 minutes ago, Trev said:

 

Andy, an alternative view is that it's you commuters with your stick on mudflaps, bouncy suspension and endless calculating of mpg to the nth decimal point that means racers and road warriors need to junk half the frippery that a bike comes with and spend a small fortune on loud exhausts and engine remaps :whistle: :D

 

Fight!!! :lol:

 

84d4cdb3f9b72b9249dfc076b602cfac.gif

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SteveThackery
On 3/28/2019 at 10:28, Tex said:

 

 

Question for those clever ones among us - why do Jap bikes (and Triumphs) always ‘CLUNK!’ into first? I hate it!

 

I've noticed that, and I don't know, but I've long suspected it's deliberate: it stops that thing I mentioned where the dogs "head butt" each other and then refuse to go into engagement.  The input shaft is still driven gently even when the clutch is disengaged, so the dogs slide over each other until they drop into engagement.

That's my theory, and it's interesting you should have noticed the same thing.  All my modern bikes do it.

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SteveThackery
On 3/28/2019 at 19:27, Grumpy old man said:

So can you tell me why some bikes come with auto blippers, must admit I'm not quite sure what they are or what they do.

 

 

Only bikes with "quick-shifters".  Most quick-shifters only work going up the gears (they cut the ignition briefly when you press on the gear lever).  The latest ones can also be used going down the gears - a press on the lever initiates a throttle blip.

 

Bikes without quick-shifters don't have auto-blip for gearchanges.

 

By the way, the latest Suzuki 650 has a "throttle assist" for pulling away - a kind of anti-stall device, basically.  Once you've got fly-by-wire you've got everything under control of software, and all sorts of fancy features become trivial to implement.

 

**Oh, sorry Tex, I see you've already explained all this!

 

Edited by SteveThackery
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embee
12 hours ago, SteveThackery said:

...By the way, the latest Suzuki 650 has a "throttle assist" for pulling away - a kind of anti-stall device, basically.  ….

Car systems have used a very basic version of this for years (decades). In a car typically when you touch the throttle the idle speed demand function will increase the target engine speed (idle air control valve etc will open up a bit), so if you blip the throttle the speed hangs up for a few seconds and then ramps back down. There is also a vehicle speed function where if it is moving the idle speed will hang up, only dropping back to base level when the vehicle is stationary. These 2 things mean that it becomes less likely to stall when pulling away, and also improves the general driveability reducing throttle on/off jerkiness etc.

Modern systems take this a step further will proper hill-start or anti-stall functions and are more capable, the early systems were an easy fix to help with most circumstances.

Edited by embee
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Scootabout
11 hours ago, embee said:

Modern systems take this a step further will proper hill-start or anti-stall functions and are more capable, the early systems were an easy fix to help with most circumstances.

 

Yes. Our 15 month old Skoda Octavia has some of this. It will keep driving 'by itself' (ie foot off throttle) in first and second, which is handy in slow moving traffic. It also has a feature whereby the revs rise as you lift your foot off the clutch pedal, making stop-start queues easier to deal with. I was embarrassed to be told about the latter feature by my son, whom I was teaching to drive, after a year of driving the car myself and wondering why it was tricky to get the revs right at start-off. Durr :blink:

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 28/03/2019 at 10:28, Tex said:

 

 

Question for those clever ones among us - why do Jap bikes (and Triumphs) always ‘CLUNK!’ into first? I hate it!

 Old thread, but I don't think this got answered?

 

It's basically down to the wet clutch. Even though the clutch is pulled in (disengaged) the oil moving / spinning around acts almost like a torque converter on the clutch.

Although the output is stationary, the input shaft will still be spinning slightly. When you put it in first, you have non moving dogs meeting slightly spinning dog slots - hence the clunk.

All perfectly normal. If the clunk is really excessive it may just be clutch drag and you need to adjust the cable to reduce the effect.

Sometimes it helps to keep the clutch pulled in for an extra few seconds, as the plates will separate fully and the torque converter effect is less severe.

 

Hope that makes sense?

Edited by sid
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Rocker66
4 minutes ago, sid said:

 Old thread, but I don't think this got answered?

 

It's basically down to the wet clutch. Even though the clutch is pulled in (disengaged) the oil moving / spinning around acts almost like a torque converter on the clutch.

Although the output is stationary, the input shaft will still be spinning slightly. When you put it in first, you have non moving dogs meeting slightly spinning dog slots - hence the clunk.

All perfectly normal. If the clunk is really excessive it may just be clutch drag and you need to adjust the cable to reduce the effect.

Sometimes it helps to keep the clutch pulled in for an extra few seconds, as the plates will separate fully and the torque converter effect is less severe.

 

Hope that makes sense?

But then my multistrada used to clunk sometimes and that had a dry clutch.

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