Jump to content
Tel

Dead end?

Recommended Posts

Tel

Saw this in MCN just now...Curtiss 'V8' concept.....I think this is the bloke who previously did Confederate bikes like The Hellcat...they claim  217hp and 147ftlb of torque!

Personally, I think the whole push to electric bikes and cars is absolute nonsense and a gigantic con.  A couple of years ago a cab driver was bringing me back from hospital in a Prius [which I now see everywhere/every day] and told me the batteries need replacing every 5 or 6 years at a cost of several thousand pounds; how environmentally friendly is that? The Prius also sounds like a box of spanners every time you hit a bump... David Attenborough et al have a lot to answer for...

Also, just watched Moto GP electric race....what a colossal waste of time and money! No range, no practicality and they sound like a gaggle of milkfloats!

curtiss v8 concept.jpg

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Rocker66

The whole point of racing is to aid in development. Just think how much of today’s  2and 4 wheel technology originated on the race track.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
embee
11 minutes ago, Tel said:

………………………….. is absolute nonsense and a gigantic con.  A couple of years ago a cab driver was bringing me back from hospital in a Prius [which I now see everywhere/every day] and told me ………………………..

 

Ermmm, I'm not sure a cab driver is often the font of true wisdom on many topics ………………………………...

 

The Prius was an exercise in examining how a certain technology would stand up in the real world. It was never considered to be the answer to all our problems. It was rather like Honda's V-Tec, a well prepared and well executed concept which was almost entirely successful at what it was intended to achieve.

USA/California sold Toyota hybrids carry an 8yr/100k mls or 10year/150k mls battery warranty, and from what I can make out from a quick search, many are over 200k mls on original batteries, albeit with an expected deterioration in battery performance (capacity etc).

The Prius was launched in late 1997, that's 22yrs ago. An awful lot of progress has been made in EV technology in 22yrs.

I think many folk don't really understand what a non-plug-in hybrid actually offers, but that's not to detract from what other formats can offer.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Tonyj

What !  you saying you can't trust a cabbie .:0)  ..... They are they finger on the pulse .especially on politics , religion. And Sexual matters . Then again I'd rather go with the Bangladeshi cabbie then Elon musk if it's about the viability of the said products they are selling . More unicorns anyone.:0) 

  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Trev
25 minutes ago, embee said:

Ermmm, I'm not sure a cab driver is often the font of true wisdom on many topics ………………………………...

 

The Prius was an exercise in examining how a certain technology would stand up in the real world. It was never considered to be the answer to all our problems. It was rather like Honda's V-Tec, a well prepared and well executed concept which was almost entirely successful at what it was intended to achieve.

USA/California sold Toyota hybrids carry an 8yr/100k mls or 10year/150k mls battery warranty, and from what I can make out from a quick search, many are over 200k mls on original batteries, albeit with an expected deterioration in battery performance (capacity etc).

The Prius was launched in late 1997, that's 22yrs ago. An awful lot of progress has been made in EV technology in 22yrs.

I think many folk don't really understand what a non-plug-in hybrid actually offers, but that's not to detract from what other formats can offer.

 

Totally agree Murray, I get a quite a few people ask me about the i3 and I'm amazed how few people have any real understanding of the technology that is already out there let alone what is coming down the line very, very soon. I was talking to a friend only yesterday who owns his own car service/repair garage and his words were ' I don't see electric cars catching on' . I said I think you're a bit behind the times in that they already have, he didn't know that VW do an an EV Golf, never heard of a Renault Zoe and thought all i3's were the version with the small 'generator motor'. When I pointed out mine was EV only his first question was of course range and when I replied minimum 120 miles his immediate response was, 'that's no where near enough, I get 400 miles out of a tank on my Discovery'. I then asked when was the last time he drove more than 60 miles without stopping and it was three months ago when he went on holiday to Cornwall!

He then trotted out the old 'but the batteries only last a few years', BMW warrant the i3 battery for 8 years so I'm guessing they're pretty sure it will last at least 8 1/2 before it goes phutt and that seems a darn sight longer than most people keep their cars and bikes these days before the 'new' model with LED seat latch and better pinstripes make it obsolete.

Like it or not EV is coming, how long it will stay is anyones guess but it wasn't that long ago that a diesel car was an oddity on our streets and we soon switched to them when it made more financial sense and I'm pretty sure most will do the same with EV as well once it makes sense to do so ..... which won't be very long at all.

 

 only about 50- 60 miles range, all night to recharge and 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Tex

 

20 minutes ago, Trev said:

 

only about 50- 60 miles range, all night to recharge and 

 

And what?! :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Andy m
Posted (edited)

I just rode the CB 200 miles. The last time the Repmobile did over 60 miles was Thursday afternoon and before that Thursday morning, Wednesday, Monday afternoon..... 

 

Ev's are just a new option that may or may not fit what you do. What also needs to change is the ownership model. The logical way is a Boris bike type set up, stick your pin in and take a charged one, book a fuel cell one for your holidays, get billed by the mile etc. Solve the mis-use problems (if it isn't yours it may as well be a public urinal) and they get more sensible. 

 

The cruiser thing that looks it belongs in a Fritz Lang film is art of some sort. I guess you might get electric cruisers as a fashion thing, but the whole open road/freedom thing hardly fit something that takes 8 hours to charge. 

 

China BTW is way ahead. Loads of electric scooters in use in their cities. Of course you don't get to travel further there, it being a totalitarian state, so their choice is easier. 

 

I had a Civic hybrid in 2006-ish as a tax dodge. About as green as The Trumps Caddilac. The wheezy little petrol engine did under 40 to the gallon and was always running The batteries were stuffed at 3 years old (the lease company refused to change them). As it was full of battery you had to hire a diesel van to do any serious moving, so more pollution from making that too. As noted above though, probably 20 year old technology now. 

 

Andy

Edited by Andy m

Share this post


Link to post
Trev
3 hours ago, Tex said:

 

 

And what?! :) 

 

Sorry laptop ran out of charge :whistle::D

  • Sigh 1
  • Haha 6

Share this post


Link to post
embee
7 minutes ago, Trev said:

 

Sorry laptop ran out of charge :whistle::D

Oh no!!!!!!!!!!!! Range anxiety reaches a new level!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shocked:

  • Like 2
  • Haha 8

Share this post


Link to post
embee
2 hours ago, Andy m said:

.........….China BTW is way ahead. Loads of electric scooters in use in their cities. ………………………….

Makes sense for city use where toxic pollution at point of use is critical.

However, if you look at the equivalent CO2 emissions for China's electricity generating system, for a small EV car it results in about double the CO2 emissions of an equivalent ICE car (but of course the air is breathable in the city).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Andy m

They can switch from brown coal to nuclear or renewables without shooting anyone live on CNN when it suits them. If they let people switch from pedal cycles to 2-smoke vespa copies as was likely to happen they'd have had the same issue we have getting people to change. If they kept them on push bikes they'd have gone the way of the Soviets. As any gun toting prepper nut job will tell you, electric has the huge advantage from a totalitarian state's point of view in that you can't store it in Jerry cans until the counter revolution comes. 

 

Andy

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
SteveThackery

I was a passenger in a 10-year-old Prius the other day, and although I can't estimate the remaining battery life, it still seems to work just fine - slow speeds on electric only, engine cutting in when giving it more beans.

 

I admire the technology enormously.  Remember, it was primarily aimed at the US market initially, with a view to giving diesel-like economy to customers who shied away from diesel for small passenger cars (different these days, of course).  The hybrid format, combined with the pseudo-Atkinson cycle engine, allowed the engine to operate more efficiently.  It was a clear success.

 

Personally I didn't like the car much - the engine was very noisy when travelling at 70-80mph and the interior isn't to my taste.

 

I'm looking forward to driving my first all-electric car and bike, whenever that might be.  I'm concerned about how green they are right now - we need carbon-free electricity generation before they are obviously better than current cars - but that will come.  Also, I wonder if we have the generation and transmission capacity in our grid.  There is plenty of information available on-line but I haven't researched it in any detail.

Share this post


Link to post
Trev

I had the Lexus cth200 (posher Prius) for an weekend 'try before you buy' and really didn't like the CVT gearbox, the car was nice very slow speeds when almost silent and silky smooth but as soon as you put your foot down to any degree the revs went up and sat there until you stopped accelerating. you could only do 2 - 3 miles and 25mph on electric only so I went for the Volvo V60 PHEV instead, a much more effective marriage of ICE and EV, 25 - 30 miles range and up to 65mph on electric meant i could drive to work on electric only, recharge and home again the same + use the same car for my trips to Scotland and France. After 70k miles/ 3  years it had averaged over 100mpg in real world use.

 

 

According to the PR blurb we had through from our business electricity supplier a few weeks ago, the UK recently hit the small miles stone of running for two weeks with over 50% of electricity generated from renewables. I'm sure there is some 'polishing up of the facts' hidden in that statistic somewhere however the fact remains that we are heading in the right direction here in the UK. Whether it will be quick enough and whether others will start to do the same is another question 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
embee
34 minutes ago, Trev said:

...According to the PR blurb we had through from our business electricity supplier a few weeks ago, the UK recently hit the small miles stone of running for two weeks with over 50% of electricity generated from renewables. I'm sure there is some 'polishing up of the facts' hidden in that statistic somewhere however the fact remains that we are heading in the right direction here in the UK.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/791297/Press_Notice_March_2019.pdf

The 50% might include "low carbon" generation, which includes nuclear (a lot of which we import).

… but as you say, probably moving in the right direction.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Bart Stilgo

I have no problems with Electric Vehicles but I don't believe batteries are the solution.

I don't ever believe battery technology will give us the range we long for (but may not use) for the flexibility we have with ICE. 

So what happened to Hydrogen

Share this post


Link to post
Andywills77
1 hour ago, Bart Stilgo said:

 

So what happened to Hydrogen

 

Tinfoil hat time.....they're hiding it from us until they've got every penny they can out of us for leccy vehicles.

Share this post


Link to post
Tonyj

Imagine solar power and hydrogen, sell em in the Middle East and you’ve got water as well :0)

Share this post


Link to post
larryblag

I remember a Top Gear feature where they tested a Prius and a BMW M3. The M3 achieved better economy. 

Of course it did. Both cars were ragged mercilessly around the test track so one of them was well within it's "comfort" zone and the other was forced to operate well outside of it's design envelope. 

 

Idiots! :D

Share this post


Link to post
rjp996

Few years ago and I would not have seriously thought we were on the cusp of electric cars for normal use, but now I'm an investor in some of those areas as I do see full electric cars becoming  mainstream. 

 

Hybrid or self charging cars as Toyota call it now,  I'm not a fan of.., ICE engine efficiency to extract energy from petrol is around 30-38%, so if you then you that low level of efficiency to charge a battery with a loss of say 85-92%, or loose even more...

 

I've driven around in an electric car capable of 300 real world miles, and I think battery density will increase again along with costs dropping (technologies such as Maxwell technologies dry cell process I think will keep the likes of Tesla increasing their cars range and reduced built costs

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
SteveThackery
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Bart Stilgo said:

So what happened to Hydrogen

 

Difficult to store; no existing transport infrastructure (unlike electricity); most of it is made from natural gas at the moment, so it isn't carbon-neutral, and electrolysis is not as efficient as you'd think; hydrogen fuel cells have a limited life.

 

None of these are insurmountable, of course, but they tilt the economic argument towards batteries.

 

This is a great article:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle

 

Edited by SteveThackery

Share this post


Link to post
SteveThackery
33 minutes ago, rjp996 said:

 

Hybrid or self charging cars as Toyota call it now,  I'm not a fan of.., ICE engine efficiency to extract energy from petrol is around 30-38%, so if you then you that low level of efficiency to charge a battery with a loss of say 85-92%, or loose even more...

 

 

That isn't the operating principle.  Rather, by storing some of the energy produced by the petrol engine as electricity, you allow the engine to avoid operation in those regimes where it is least efficient.  It's just a way of improving the fuel-to-wheel efficiency of a petrol-powered car.

 

Plug-in hybrids allow the initial charge in the battery to come from the mains, rather than the engine, but are otherwise similar.

Share this post


Link to post
Andy m

Commercial vehicles are looking at fuel cell. You can't stay under 44 tonnes and get from Poland to Calais without either a fuel of some sort of overhead cables/Scalextric tracks (I kid you not, this is the Swedish solution) and have a viable load. It'll come with automated driving though, the 44 tonner will be driven by an AI at night, on the most efficient route etc. and the distribution may then be by battery vehicles. Begs the question where all the water will go though, you don't want Bladerunner type conditions on the M6. Hydrogen storage at an Amazon hub is not that different to having your own diesel tank once they sort out the connectors, you aren't expecting to have to stop the public smoking, drinking it etc.

 

Buses are looking at pantograph type things that pop up at every bus stop. They are not limited by weight, 60 people and their stuff only weighs 9 tons even if they have all been to the pie shop, more like 6 in most cases. The batteries do make them heavier. Rubbish like the Boris bus that had to run the engine for the aircon and heating taught them a lot. 

 

Andy

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
SteveThackery
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Andy m said:

Hydrogen storage at an Amazon hub is not that different to having your own diesel tank once they sort out the connectors, you aren't expecting to have to stop the public smoking, drinking it etc.

 

The volumes are challenging, though, when you consider that the container has to handle enormous pressures:

Even when the fuel is stored as liquid hydrogen in a cryogenic tank or in a compressed hydrogen storage tank, the volumetric energy density (megajoules per liter) is small relative to that of gasoline.  Wikipedia

 

4.2 times the volume, even when liquefied.  16 times the volume at 3600 psi (245 atm, 25MPa).

 

Of course, it can be done, but is it really viable for bikes and cars?  Commercials might well be a different proposition.

Edited by SteveThackery

Share this post


Link to post
Rocker66
3 hours ago, Andy m said:

Commercial vehicles are looking at fuel cell. You can't stay under 44 tonnes and get from Poland to Calais without either a fuel of some sort of overhead cables/Scalextric tracks (I kid you not, this is the Swedish solution) and have a viable load. It'll come with automated driving though, the 44 tonner will be driven by an AI at night, on the most efficient route etc. and the distribution may then be by battery vehicles. Begs the question where all the water will go though, you don't want Bladerunner type conditions on the M6. Hydrogen storage at an Amazon hub is not that different to having your own diesel tank once they sort out the connectors, you aren't expecting to have to stop the public smoking, drinking it etc.

 

Buses are looking at pantograph type things that pop up at every bus stop. They are not limited by weight, 60 people and their stuff only weighs 9 tons even if they have all been to the pie shop, more like 6 in most cases. The batteries do make them heavier. Rubbish like the Boris bus that had to run the engine for the aircon and heating taught them a lot. 

 

Andy

Buses with pantograph as transport of the future eh. They had them in Maidstone when I was a kid they were were called trolleys .

  • Like 1
  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Andy m

Indeed, trolley buses that hold their breath between stops. What I think we will see from the old systems is the generator car. Bradford had a truck (AEC Mammoth IIRC) with a generator set in the back that went out when the wires came down or the driver got a bus with a fifteen foot pole, sixteen feet from the nearest wire. Connect the truck to the trolley and there was enough power for recovery. A load of copper bars and exotic metal bits in every bus stop is bound to attract thieves, vandals and act as a magnet ( :D ) to anyone who's going to crash. They should be linked so if the bus can't take on enough charge to get to the next available point it won't go on, but we always end up with physical solution.

 

They'd also find automation of the driving a lot easier if they'd fit a couple of rails to take care of the steering, but that involves planning which is expensive.

 

Personally I intend to invest in roller skates and a huge magnet. The transformer coils in each of the 84 bus stops in the last two miles of my journey home should provide for free and timetable independent locomotion.

 

Andy

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×