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Tel

Dead end?

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SteveThackery
1 hour ago, Tel said:

 

Are you sure about the existing electricity infrastructure? If more people go electric how will the grid cope? It won't [however that  power is produced].

 

No, nobody can be sure, of course!  It all depends on the rate of uptake of EVs, and the rate of investment in the generation and transmission infrastructure - both of which are uncertain.

 

One thing that helps is that most of the charging will take place at night, which is when the load on the grid is the lowest, so it might not require quite such an uplift as we might fear.  There are some really good government reports covering all these issues, which I've read but not kept - Google will find them again.

 

1 hour ago, Tel said:

Also, nobody mentions the security and safety implications in all your pronouncements; city dwellers cannot park in the road outside their homes and connect to the domestic or public power without scum intervening and silent cars/vehicles are a menace anywhere but especially in busy city environments, particularly when over half the people on the planet can't now walk along the street without being connected by headphones to music or to other sad cases who can't cope with being alone with themselves anymore! 

 

 

I agree - if you don't have off-road parking you'll have to recharge elsewhere.  Maybe relying on your workplace, or your local supermarket.  About the noise issue: the EU has just decreed that all EVs must make a noise - 2022 I think is the deadline for implementation.

 

One question in my mind is the "charging etiquette" - while supermarket, etc, charging points are in limited supply, how do you stop people parking up in a charging bay while they shop and blocking it for longer than actually required for the charge?  They might spend ages meandering around the shop, followed by tea and cake in the cafe.  You could probably only resolve this by providing every space with its own charging point.

Also, what about dedicated recharging stations (like petrol stations)?  The dwell time at a recharging point is going to be 15 - 30 minutes, realistically, which is WAY longer than the dwell time at a petrol pump.  If people still make a similar use of such places, we might expect some serious queues.  Realistically I think usage will decline as people habitually charge up elsewhere.

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Rev Ken
2 hours ago, Tel said:

 

Are you sure about the existing electricity infrastructure? If more people go electric how will the grid cope? It won't [however that  power is produced]. Also, nobody mentions the security and safety implications in all your pronouncements; city dwellers cannot park in the road outside their homes and connect to the domestic or public power without scum intervening and silent cars/vehicles are a menace anywhere but especially in busy city environments, particularly when over half the people on the planet can't now walk along the street without being connected by headphones to music or to other sad cases who can't cope with being alone with themselves anymore! 

 

Apparently a large research fund has been put together to look at sustainable power generation, and systems to charge cars without connecting cables, built into roads. Oh and I think future EVs will have to have acoustic noises, but only compulsory below 20mph. I wonder what noises we will hear? (Perhaps selected by the driver the same way we change the ring tones on our smart phones!):D

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Andywills77
5 minutes ago, Rev Ken said:

Apparently a large research fund has been put together to look at sustainable power generation, and systems to charge cars without connecting cables, built into roads. Oh and I think future EVs will have to have acoustic noises, but only compulsory below 20mph. I wonder what noises we will hear? (Perhaps selected by the driver the same way we change the ring tones on our smart phones!):D

 

An EU directive came into effect on 1st July. Unbelievably they have only got to make a noise when doing less than 12mph or reversing!....que the kids getting knocked over outside schools were it's 20mph (if they're lucky)

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Andy m

Ah the faffing (other f words are available) forty driver. Second biggest PITA on the road. A result of combining "speed kills" b*****ks with congestion and cars full of Internet and music toys. The tax cameras could fund themselves for a year in some of the villages in the Dale's. Every faffing fortyists has a queue that like them will often keep doing forty though the villages. Kerching, hundred pound notes are falling out of their printer. And yes, I do overtake them in the 50 and 60 limits and then slow down for the 30.

 

The EV noise spec will be a laugh. The same loonies who gave us the feeble Noddy horns on modern vehicles are going to argue that a low decibel requirement is environmentally friendly. Sensible people are going to note that detection is not the issue. School kids know vehicles are there, they also know that a driver that hits them is heading for a world of pain and they play on it. The manufacturers will want to sell upgrades from milk float to mini (F1 car will be illegal under the dB limit). As a product this speaker and sound chip is going to have ten digit mark up's so they'll love it. Paying twenty quid online to upgrade your £400 a month car will sell like hot things. The resulting mish mash will just be silly. Collision Mitigation of course already has everything except the upgrade payments covered. 

 

Andy

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Trev

Lots of interesting points, keep 'em coming.

 

To answer a few of the questions from an actual owner experience:

 

Although I have a charge point at home, the range and use pattern (120 miles +, 20 mile commute) mean I usually only ever charge at work where it takes 4 - 5 hours for a full charge, but more, usually an hour to top up. We have three plug in points as have three PHEV's on the company fleet and already staff with two PHEV's. As people aren't always in together then we seem to have no problem sharing chargers and, when we do, we'll install a few more. If I do charge it at home it's almost always over night.

 

My next door neighbour has just purchased a brand new Renault Zoe, the one with the larger batter pack, 240 mile range according to tests, apparently 190 in 'real world. It cost him just under £24k with the government grant which is still a fair bit more than the 'equivalent' Clio (probably about £6k) but he calculates they will save that in fuel over two years or less. He has a solar array being fitted to generate household electricity and plans to use the Zoe as storage for overnight (similar to the Tesla Wall thing) and calculates payback on the solar panels at just under 5 years at current electricity prices. He's taken early retirement and is investing some of his pension cash in reducing future cost of living. BTW,  he does have a bike (I triumph 800 Explorer thingy) but it's five years old and he doesn't plan to change it unless it gets unreliable so he's plainly not NC forum material :D

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Rocker66

I can’t see all companies being happy to allow all their employees to charge their vehicles at work . For some the cost of supplying the charging points and the electricity bill could be a real problem.

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Tex

If charging your vehicle at work becomes commonplace then HMRC will want to tax you on the electricity you’ve saved at home. Think I’m joking? The bast*rds thought they could tax AA men for taking the company van home at night (the reasoning being we would otherwise have to fund our commute ourselves). There was a sufficient outcry that the idea got dropped, I wouldn’t guarantee that happening twice. 

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Trev
13 minutes ago, Rocker66 said:

I can’t see all companies being happy to allow all their employees to charge their vehicles at work . For some the cost of supplying the charging points and the electricity bill could be a real problem.

 

I agree, although it's not very expensive (approx £500 per point, the 32kW version) and under £4 a for a full charge on the i3, less than half that for the PHEV's) it never ceases to amaze me how company bosses think a Range Rover is a better investment than staff support. One monthly finance payment and a 1,000 miles of fuel for a chelsea tractor will install a point and keep an EV in power for 10, 000 miles

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Rocker66
2 minutes ago, Tex said:

If charging your vehicle at work becomes commonplace then HMRC will want to tax you on the electricity you’ve saved at home. Think I’m joking? The bast*rds thought they could tax AA men for taking the company van home at night (the reasoning being we would otherwise have to fund our commute ourselves). There was a sufficient outcry that the idea got dropped, I wouldn’t guarantee that happening twice. 

At one time we got taxed on the estimated value of our free rail passes whether we used them or not.

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Rocker66
Just now, Trev said:

 

I agree, although it's not very expensive (approx £500 per point, the 32kW version) and under £4 a for a full charge on the i3, less than half that for the PHEV's) it never ceases to amaze me how company bosses think a Range Rover is a better investment than staff support. One monthly finance payment and a 1,000 miles of fuel for a chelsea tractor will install a point and keep an EV in power for 10, 000 miles

But imagine a company with 50 or more employees all there at the same time every day or something like a train depot with staff their 24/7 each wanting to charge their vehicle.

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SteveThackery

Some useful information here, although aiming a bit low:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48881117

 

 

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Trev
3 minutes ago, Tex said:

If charging your vehicle at work becomes commonplace then HMRC will want to tax you on the electricity you’ve saved at home. Think I’m joking? The bast*rds thought they could tax AA men for taking the company van home at night (the reasoning being we would otherwise have to fund our commute ourselves). There was a sufficient outcry that the idea got dropped, I wouldn’t guarantee that happening twice. 

 

No doubt they/we will have to somehow replace the revenue lost on petrol and diesel sales somehow. For now it's a perk, won't stay that way unless government decides to encourage EV use by getting the lost revenue by some other means .... increased fuel tax on diesel and petrol :whistle:

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Rocker66
18 minutes ago, SteveThackery said:

Some useful information here, although aiming a bit low:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48881117

 

 

So not only does the production and transporting of the batteries have a high carbon footprint but so does the disposing of them. 

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Trev
21 minutes ago, Rocker66 said:

But imagine a company with 50 or more employees all there at the same time every day or something like a train depot with staff their 24/7 each wanting to charge their vehicle.

 

Of course there will be challenges but this particular one isn't very difficult, we have over 60 staff (not on site all at the same time) and could pretty easily accommodate most of them for charging access. How we factor in the cost would need to be decided but it would be a lot less than the pension contribution uplift and I'm sure once it gets to a reasonable cost and eats significantly into profit then there is some offset of not paying corporation tax on the profit you haven't made. It's all easily do able with a bit of foresight, will and investment.

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Rocker66
Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Trev said:

 

Of course there will be challenges but this particular one isn't very difficult, we have over 60 staff (not on site all at the same time) and could pretty easily accommodate most of them for charging access. How we factor in the cost would need to be decided but it would be a lot less than the pension contribution uplift and I'm sure once it gets to a reasonable cost and eats significantly into profit then there is some offset of not paying corporation tax on the profit you haven't made. It's all easily do able with a bit of foresight, will and investment.

As you say not all on site at the same time. My example of a train crew depot would often involve over 100 staff on site at a time then of course there are all the other departments so every day the company would be paying to charge literally thousands of vehicles. 

I appreciate that you say that it works for your company but I’m sure that there are many got that it wouldn’t .

Edited by Rocker66
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Trev
26 minutes ago, Rocker66 said:

As you say not all on site at the same time. My example of a train crew depot would often involve over 100 staff on site at a time then of course there are all the other departments so every day the company would be paying to charge literally thousands of vehicles. 

I appreciate that you say that it works for your company but I’m sure that there are many got that it wouldn’t .

 

I'm sure you're right but just because it won't work for all that doesn't make it a reason not to do something. Don't forget small businesses employ far more than large businesses, at least in the private sector - 16.3 million in 2018.

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Rocker66
3 hours ago, Trev said:

 

I'm sure you're right but just because it won't work for all that doesn't make it a reason not to do something. Don't forget small businesses employ far more than large businesses, at least in the private sector - 16.3 million in 2018.

If as the media regularly informs is tue then many small businesses are operating on small:margins and really don’t need all the extra expense. I agree every little bit helps but it’s a long way from helping everyone. What happens to somebody who lives in a rural area and needs their own transport to get to work when the government price petrol out of their range and their i/c powered vehicle is worth next to nothing because nobody wants one so they can’t afford a EV. As usual everything is aimed at those with a reasonable income without considering those living from week to week.

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Trev
1 hour ago, Rocker66 said:

If as the media regularly informs is tue then many small businesses are operating on small:margins and really don’t need all the extra expense. I agree every little bit helps but it’s a long way from helping everyone. What happens to somebody who lives in a rural area and needs their own transport to get to work when the government price petrol out of their range and their i/c powered vehicle is worth next to nothing because nobody wants one so they can’t afford a EV. As usual everything is aimed at those with a reasonable income without considering those living from week to week.

 

Fair enough Rocker, we're doomed, we're doomed :frantics::D

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Rocker66
41 minutes ago, Trev said:

 

Fair enough Rocker, we're doomed, we're doomed :frantics::D

You can joke but I can see real problems for some people when their I/c vehicles become worthless .we certainly couldn’t afford to change to a e/v without getting a decent price for our I/c bikes and there are plenty of people worse off than us.

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slowboy

Rocker old chap, I don't think it's a problem you need worry greatly about, neither should most of us on here.

We'll be long gone, frankly.

And if IC vehicles do become worthless, there will be many other things to worry about other than residual values.

I would recommend enjoying what you have rather than getting vexed about something you can neither influence or resolve on behalf of people you don't even know.

There will always be those worse off than us and those better of than us. Thats how it is, better people than us have tried to solve the worlds problems, I just try to concentrate on dealing with mine where I can affect the outcome, and help others in some small practical way. 

Just a thought😉

 

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Rocker66
45 minutes ago, slowboy said:

Rocker old chap, I don't think it's a problem you need worry greatly about, neither should most of us on here.

We'll be long gone, frankly.

And if IC vehicles do become worthless, there will be many other things to worry about other than residual values.

I would recommend enjoying what you have rather than getting vexed about something you can neither influence or resolve on behalf of people you don't even know.

There will always be those worse off than us and those better of than us. Thats how it is, better people than us have tried to solve the worlds problems, I just try to concentrate on dealing with mine where I can affect the outcome, and help others in some small practical way. 

Just a thought😉

 

I spent/years as a Union Rep trying to help others and I like to think that I care about the future generations even if I’m not going to be around. I get annoyed when some people have the attitude I’m ok I have enough money to get over the problem so why should I care. 

There are many things in life that I can’t do anything about  but that doesn’t mean I don’t care about them. 

I realise that  both being an ex Union rep ( not going to get into the politics of that on here) and saying what I think doesn’t make popular with many on here but that’s me.

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fred_jb

I think I read recently that all new chargers are mandated to have control technology so that they can be throttled down or shut off at times of maximum grid load. Could make charger queues and charger rage even more likely!

 

Still, seems sensible because if we go down this path we will probably have a serious shortfall in generating capacity, it is already forecast to be marginal when old nuclear and coal fired are shutdown.  I suspect this will also allow special (higher) tax charges to be applied to electrons used for vehicle charging, so that governments can replace fuel tax revenues and effectively discourage vehicle use to keep generating capacity requirements under control.

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Rocker66
4 minutes ago, fred_jb said:

I think I read recently that all new chargers are mandated to have control technology so that they can be throttled down or shut off at times of maximum grid load. Could make charger queues and charger rage even more likely!

 

Still, seems sensible because if we go down this path we will probably have a serious shortfall in generating capacity, it is already forecast to be marginal when old nuclear and coal fired are shutdown.  I suspect this will also allow special (higher) tax charges to be applied to electrons used for vehicle charging, so that governments can replace fuel tax revenues and effectively discourage vehicle use to keep generating capacity requirements under control.

If personal transport use is going to be discouraged and I’m sure that your right about it would be hoped that much more investment would be made into public transport something I really can’t see happening.

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Tonyj

That reminds me of dieselgate , just dropped 30k on a van and 6weeks later stuffed :0) ... I think I could of shifted herpes easier then this van . Apparently it’s my fault that London is full up of fumes :0) I think it’s ten million people all farting at once 

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Trev
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Rocker66 said:

I spent/years as a Union Rep trying to help others and I like to think that I care about the future generations even if I’m not going to be around. I get annoyed when some people have the attitude I’m ok I have enough money to get over the problem so why should I care. 

There are many things in life that I can’t do anything about  but that doesn’t mean I don’t care about them. 

I realise that  both being an ex Union rep ( not going to get into the politics of that on here) and saying what I think doesn’t make popular with many on here but that’s me.

 

Rocker, being an ex-union rep and saying what you think doesn't make you unpopular with me however continually pointing out the possible downsides of something that I do care about and have done something about (helping people get access to EV charge points and power in this case) does grind my gears a bit. I realise that set against the millions of people, including all those who work in train depo's, who haven't got access to charge points, then only helping a few dozen people may seem a a drop in the ocean, perhaps even futile however, even though I'm a ruthless businessman rather than union rep, I am allowed to care as well. The difference is I'm actually doing something about it.

 

However I get it, I tend to come at things from a glass half full perspective, you tend to come at them from glass half empty point of view, we're different that's all and that's just fine, my gears are now nicely meshed:thumbsup:

Edited by Trev
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