Tappets adjusted, now sounds like an egg timer.

[shiggsy 529]

Not the first time I have adjusted the valve clearances on this bike, but this time it's developed a distinct rattle after when it didn't have one before.

Bike was running fine, returning 88-90mpg but it was time for a check and I was fitting new steering head bearings so it was a good opportunity with the forks out of the way.

I did notice the all the clearances had closed up, couldn't get a .17mm in the inlets or a .28mm in the outlets.  Unfortunately I didn't bother checking what the actual clearances were.

 

So my process was:

Rotate the engine anti-clockwise until the timing line from the --T1 mark lines up with the crank hole notch and the |1 mark on the cam sprocket lines up with the LOWER cylinder head index line.

This has cylinder 1 ready for checking, cylinder 1 is on the clutch side.

Inlet clearances (uppers) checked for 0.17 mm

Exhaust clearances (lowers) 0.28 mm

Repeat process for cylinder 2.

 

On starting up I thought  - yikes, that doesn't sound right.  I could only think I had lined up for Cylinder 1 and adjusted Cylinder 2. So next day took it apart again and checked, everything was correct.

 

Have I got the cylinder numbers the right way round?  Bike runs fine but sounds wrong.

[Argyll 1,334]

Did you check that you were on the compression stroke? If not, they'll be way out.

[shiggsy 529]

This puts it on the compression stroke.

 

"Rotate the engine anti-clockwise until the timing line from the --T1 mark lines up with the crank hole notch and the |1 mark on the cam sprocket lines up with the LOWER cylinder head index line. "

[embee 7,288]

I suggest doing a "sanity check", it's what in the industry we call a back to basics simple check using fundamental principles rather than " align this turn that"  type process.

 

Turn the crank until one pair of valves are seen to be at more or less full lift, then turn the engine one complete revolution and check the clearances. This will have the cams mid-way round the base circle, opposite the lobe. You don't need to be absolutely precise for this, the base circle run-out will be absolutely minimal (so readings will not vary significantly) and there's well over one crank revs worth of base circle (typically 480deg) so as long as you're about one crank rev away from full lift it'll be good enough.

 

As you say, the engine should only be turned in the normal running direction (so you don't load the camchain tensioner), which if there is any doubt is the same direction as the wheels turn.

[Grumpy old man 4,670]

10 hours ago, shiggsy said:

Not the first time I have adjusted the valve clearances on this bike, but this time it's developed a distinct rattle after when it didn't have one before.

Bike was running fine, returning 88-90mpg but it was time for a check and I was fitting new steering head bearings so it was a good opportunity with the forks out of the way.

I did notice the all the clearances had closed up, couldn't get a .17mm in the inlets or a .28mm in the outlets.  Unfortunately I didn't bother checking what the actual clearances were.

 

So my process was:

Rotate the engine anti-clockwise until the timing line from the --T1 mark lines up with the crank hole notch and the |1 mark on the cam sprocket lines up with the LOWER cylinder head index line.

This has cylinder 1 ready for checking, cylinder 1 is on the clutch side.

Inlet clearances (uppers) checked for 0.17 mm

Exhaust clearances (lowers) 0.28 mm

Repeat process for cylinder 2.

 

On starting up I thought  - yikes, that doesn't sound right.  I could only think I had lined up for Cylinder 1 and adjusted Cylinder 2. So next day took it apart again and checked, everything was correct.

 

Have I got the cylinder numbers the right way round?  Bike runs fine but sounds wrong.

I seem to think that number one cylinder is the gear change side ie, the left side when sitting on the bike. 

[Grumpy old man 4,670]

Ooops sorry, did you mean clutch side on the engine or the handle bars, I thought you meant engine, but as I said I believe the number 1 cylinder is on the left as you sit on the bike as you are sitting on it.

 

Hope it helps

Grumpy

 

[rjp996 1,091]

when I first did mine, i made the mistake initily and had it on the wrong stroke - i took out spark plug and double checked I was at the top of the compression stroke.

[shiggsy 529]

6 hours ago, Grumpy old man said:

Ooops sorry, did you mean clutch side on the engine or the handle bars, I thought you meant engine, but as I said I believe the number 1 cylinder is on the left as you sit on the bike as you are sitting on it.

 

Yes when I said clutch side I meant clutch lever side, Cylinder 2 is brake lever side.

 

 

31 minutes ago, rjp996 said:

when I first did mine, i made the mistake initily and had it on the wrong stroke - i took out spark plug and double checked I was at the top of the compression stroke.

First time I did the same thing as the PDF manual wrongly tells you to line  up the cam sprocket mark with the upper case marker. 

 

Guess I'll have to take it apart again for a triple check, this time doing embee's "sanity check" too.  

 

[shiggsy 529]

MPG is unchanged, just returned 88.2 

[trisaki 2,029]

Watch number  1 inlet rocker go down then come up , next time you see number 1, T that's tdc on compression  

[neil700 72]

Just a note that when they are 100%, they are a tad noisy ... one of them things 

[shiggsy 529]

Ran up to the dealership this morning, bought an Oil filter and was going to get some spark plugs but they wanted £63 for the pair!!!, so just got the oil filter.  Then asked if somebody would mind listening to my engine and see what they think, which they were kind enough to do.  Basically thought it sounded not right. 

 

So I have gone back in and had another look.  This time I rotated the engine watching the CYL 1 valves, as the inlets closed I switched my attention back to the timing marks, the -F firing marker came past and then the -T1 mark, with that aligned, the cam sprocket was also on the |1 mark aligned with the lower casing mark.  So now I know I am on CYL1 on the compression stroke.  Each of the rocker arms where slightly loose and can be wiggled, whilst on the other cylinder only two can be wiggled , the other two being solid.   Checked the clearances and they are all in spec.

 

I tried embee's sanity method but couldn't seem to make it work, after the inlet valves closed, one full revolution (of the crank with the socket) had one pair of rockers wiggly loose and the others solid.  Maybe I am supposed to rotate it twice, but I thought that would just land me back where I was so I'm obviously mis-understanding something there.

 

This time however I also checked how far the cam chain tensioner was protruding above the cylinder head, the service limit is up to 6mm, mine measured about 9mm so its out of spec, looks like this may be the problem.   Maybe there is a correlation between the cam chain being out of spec which made the valves appear closed up, and when adjusted they are actually too loose.  Dunno. 

 

 

 

So currently weighing up if I want to do this myself, vs let experienced eyes do it incase they spot something else that needs doing.

 

[embee 7,288]

You need to do each pair of valves separately for the sanity check.

 

Turn the engine until one pair of inlet valves are at full lift (as near as you can judge), then turn the engine one revolution and check the clearances on THOSE valves (and ONLY those valves)..

Repeat the exercise for the other pair of inlet valves, set to full lift, turn engine one revolution, check clearances. Then do the same process for each pair of exhaust valves separately.

 

The camchain tensioner check is for the protrusion of the adjuster wedge beyond the end of the tensioner body, not the cylinder head, unless I'm very much mistaken. Superficially yours looks OK to me, but that's just from what I expect to see with these Honda tensioners (same type used in Deauville etc).

Edited August 9, 2019 by embee

[shiggsy 529]

You know, the first time I checked it, it was 4mm, then I did valve clearances and decided to double checked the tensioner again, this time it was 9mm. First time I did it correctly,  second time like a plonker I measured it from the cylinder head.  Just been out and checked it again correctly, 4mm.  Good spot embee, thanks.

 

I can try your sanity check again tomorrow, but I can't see it yielding different results at the moment,  but I will try it. 

[trisaki 2,029]

Hi mate  shame you arnt closer otherwise I would have popped over to check things out for you,  I'm in west Sussex  

[Tex 36,816]

 

 

3 hours ago, shiggsy said:

So now I know I am on CYL1 on the compression stroke.  Each of the rocker arms where slightly loose and can be wiggled, whilst on the other cylinder only two can be wiggled , the other two being solid.   Checked the clearances and they are all in spec.

 

Sometimes that’s just the way it is. I spent a long time getting my Triumph valves right (shims) and it’s definitely noisier than previously (when all the valves were tight). The idea is to adjust your valves so they have the correct clearance not adjust them so your engine sounds nice..  

 

My Integra rattled like a bitch (sounded like two skeletons shagging in a metal box) but it went fine. Went bloody well, in fact. 

 

What would I do in your place? Nothing. Enjoy your 88.2mpg (ain’t much wrong with that motorcycle) and in a week it’s going to sound perfectly normal. 

[kayz1 2,928]

I must say that the 700 Integra i had was the same, went very well and good MPG...but the clatter it made was an embarrassment...

[embattle 332]

I often think about doing such things myself but I just don't find it worth it.

[embee 7,288]

12 hours ago, kayz1 said:

I must say that the 700 Integra i had was the same, went very well and good MPG...but the clatter it made was an embarrassment...

Having adopted a 50/50 mix of Castrol Power1 oils in 10W40 and 10W30 mine generally sounds much nicer. When cold it sounds like a sewing machine, when hot it's a bit more busy sounding, but still perfectly acceptable. It does sound better in neutral than when in gear at standstill. Note that the DCT bikes have a split spring-loaded primary drive gear on the crank to reduce backlash clatter, the manuals don't. I can only guess that the extra inertia of the dual clutch assembly (it is a hefty lump!) warrants the cost of the split gear just to make it slightly less clattery, they wouldn't put it there if it wasn't required for some reason, it's not a cheap item (assembly 3,4,5 below)

https://www.bike-parts-honda.com/

[shiggsy 529]

Right, think we are ok.  

I went over the clearances, again, this time, with a feeler gauge inserted I tried to orientate it to see if I could get it to a spot where it would suddenly go from draggy to freed up and loose. If I could it meant I probably previously had the blade at a slight angle resulting in a wider gap.  When I found one of these, and there were a few, I readjusted them, now with the blade parallel to the valve top. On start up this time it was noticeable less clicky. As the gaps had originally all closed up I guess I had also got used to a quieter bike and it sounded a hell of a lot worse than I was used to.

 

Once the rad was bled though, again,  I decided to do a compression test too.  So out came the spark plugs for the first time ever, don't look to bad for 59k, but I still have some new ones on order from gssparkplugs.com, (half the price Honda wanted).

 

 

 

The compression should be 250 PSI,  I got 244 and 246. Again not bad for 59k miles.

 

Thanks to everyone for the contributions and help.  

Edited August 10, 2019 by shiggsy

[SteveThackery 3,090]

38 minutes ago, shiggsy said:

 

I went over the clearances, again, this time, with a feeler gauge inserted I tried to orientate it to see if I could get it to a spot where it would suddenly go from draggy to freed up and loose. If I could it meant I probably previously had the blade at a slight angle resulting in a wider gap.  When I found one of these, and there were a few, I readjusted them, now with the blade parallel to the valve top. On start up this time it was noticeable less clicky.

 

 

If you haven't used feeler gauges before it can be quite tricky, especially if access is awkward.  But you are right - the feeler must be parallel to the valve top to get an accurate result.

Once you've set them, check them again using the 'go/no go' method before bolting it all back together.  Valve clearances are always specified as a range (e.g. for the inlets it's 0.15mm to 0.19mm).  Check that a 0.15mm feeler enters freely with no drag, and a 0.19mm feeler won't enter (or, if you force it, it drags heavily).  That, incidentally, is how you should measure the clearances before you decide to adjust them.

[embee 7,288]

Easiest to use angled/offset feeler gauges in the NC (and many other bikes come to that). I got a set specifically to do the NC with a .007" (.178mm) and a .011" (.279mm) feeler included, Sealey VS515 set. 

 

[shiggsy 529]

I've got angled feeler gauges, precisely because I knew its easy to get the ordinary ones in with a bend giving a false reading, so no excuses really, just got sloppy.  However the "gauge set" is quite long as it has even gauges at one end and odds at the other, think next time I will remove the blades I use to make them easier to handle.