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KingJames

Very soon we will all be able to ride like maniacs

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outrunner

Interesting no doubt, but I would like to see a test on a wet, slippery road instead of a dry track surface.

 

 

Andy.

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KingJames

No-one would lean a bike properly over on a wet slippery road :devil:

I thought that poor bike at the beginning sequence. what did it do to deserve that.

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Andy m

Cornering ABS. It can still only get rid of braking in excess of what the combination of road and tyre can use, up to the limit of what the rider is demanding. If they took us all to the track and let us practice it would indeed be possible to turn and brake much harder in the wet than we do, applying the brakes to excess and letting the system sort it out. A few, faced with crashing, will decide to brake that hard and be saved, but many will not. It possibly favours the inexperienced rider. One in a million will constantly use the system to achieve seemingly crazy speeds and will then crash when either the fuse blows or the performance demanded is beyond what the tyres and road can deliver. 

 

The MCN "Uncrashable" is their usual b******s. 

 

From a service point of view there will be an actual reset which will please the dealers. The accelerometers need to know where the horizon is. They assume the average is level, but also have a physical limit of 2-3 degrees in order to detect a unit about to fall off the bracket. If it decides the mounting is wonky you either true it up and drive it for 15 minutes, or go in with the software and confirm the current reading is level. 

 

What you need to get over the rider not demanding the required braking is EBA or CM. The radar exists, I do not believe the ability to automatically pilot a bike to a safe conclusion having taken over from the rider does though. We've had the sensors and ESC/RSS on trucks and trailers for 20 years, if ABS cut crashes by 10%, this took another 1% off (we know there is a difference because the Americans refuse to have it, so we can compare parts sales and claims). We don't have data an EBA/CM yet but my expectation is 0.1% better. 

 

Andy

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rab_not_c

Big difference on that video for me is not the stopping distance. If you look at the whole video from Bosch rather than the MCN :sick: edit MSC is more aimed at maintaining position on your side of the road-a bonus when it all goes wrong.

Dave

 

 

 

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larryblag

What next - the unbreakable egg? 

:whistle:

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Golflad

What load of B What Andy said. Time I packed it in.

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baben
2 hours ago, Golflad said:

What load of B What Andy said. Time I packed it in.

I like ABS as a safety net but I try to ride so I don't need it. I know these electronics are very reliable but when they go wrong (and it is when not if as that is how they are designed) they will be either expensive or impossible to fix.

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KingJames

I'm with rab_not_c, staying on your side of the road will save your life, for those moments when the vanishing point fails to work or you have just cocked it up.

 

 

 

 

 

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Andy m

I fix them all the time. Hardly impossible. You do need professional knowledge and tools beyond a hammer which can be a problem. 

 

The very first of the current generation trailer system we sold in the UK is still in use. That's 17 years out of warranty, so the engineering boys are owed a kicking from aftermarket, but the customers are happy. 

 

Andy

Edited by Andy m
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listener
4 hours ago, Andy m said:

I fix them all the time. Hardly impossible. You do need professional knowledge and tools beyond a hammer which can be a problem. 

 

Reminds me of the old adage (something like) :

An amateur knows to hit/kick it.

A tradesman knows where to hit/kick it.

An expert knows how hard to hit/kick it.

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SteveThackery
13 hours ago, Andy m said:

 

The MCN "Uncrashable" is their usual b******s. 

 

 

I think that bears emphasising.  No amount of sophistication will give the ABS the ability to break the laws of physics.  I know how to ride a bike into a wet corner such that it will skid from under me even without touching the brakes.  Just shy of that lean angle, I could touch the brakes and still drop the bike; beyond a certain lean angle the tyre will continue to slide sideways even if the ABS releases the brakes for you, due to the sideways momentum gained during the initial slide.

 

It's also worth remembering that the more "gently" the ABS works (due to your lean angle), the longer you take to slow down.  So you could be faced with a difficult choice: either deliberately drop it, or run into the back of the car in front.  Either way, "uncrashable" is simply drivel.

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SteveThackery
6 hours ago, baben said:

I like ABS as a safety net but I try to ride so I don't need it. I know these electronics are very reliable but when they go wrong (and it is when not if as that is how they are designed) they will be either expensive or impossible to fix.

 

No, no!  Sorry, baben, but I simply cannot agree with that.  The last time I had an electronic box fail on a car or motorcycle was back in the late 1980s (a Saab Turbo).  Provided they don't get immersed in water (Rover 75, I'm thinking of you) they are extraordinarily reliable.  

 

The ageing mechanisms in electronic components are few and very slow, provided they are operated within their specs (see later).  Nowadays only electrolytic capacitors age quickly enough to actually be a potential problem - i.e. they might fail before the device has reached the end of its required lifespan.  

 

Just to be clear: we don't know how to make the perfect electronic component, obviously, so ultimately everything we make will fail.  But electronics will usually work for many, many years - often many decades, provided they aren't subjected to environmental stresses outside their specification (humidity, temperature, vibration, voltage, etc).  Also, manufacturing imperfections can give random (i.e. unpredictable) failures at any time, but these occur at an extremely low rate - electronic components have a random failure rate in the billions of hours.

 

It is actually exceedingly difficult to design a particular lifespan into an electronic component.  If you say to a semiconductor manufacturer "I want this chip to fail after ten to twenty years", they honestly would not be able to oblige you.  It would take vast amounts of research to find an ageing mechanism that can be deliberately engineered in, with enough consistency to guarantee a failure within that period.  This is in stark contrast to many mechanical components, where you can determine the wear rate with considerable accuracy.

 

I've worked in electronics all my life and have found that since the late '80s (by when the mechanisms of electrostatic discharge damage were fully understood), electronics have been extraordinarily reliable and durable EXCEPT when operated outside their design envelope (voltage, current, temperature, etc).

 

I don't believe anybody deliberately designs in a lifespan or deliberate failure mechanism into car or motorcycle electronics - there's too much at risk in terms of safety and reputation.  Rather, all such electronics are designed to meet a certain budget, and - as with all human endeavour - designers make mistakes, both of which could lead to an electronic component being over-stressed and thus fail relatively quickly.  But it isn't a deliberate design decision to limit the lifespan for the reasons I've said: it's really hard to make electronics fail to a timetable.

 

HOWEVER, outside the automotive industry it isn't all like that.  Perhaps the perfect example of short-lived electronics are low cost LED lighting fixtures from China.  I've had plenty fail, and when examined I've found that they all overload the LEDs in order to get more light for a given price point.  For example, a 6 watt unit I dismantled had four, one-watt LEDs installed.  So they were subject to a 50% overload in power dissipation, which pushes the temperature way above the maximum rated value and rapidly accelerates the ageing of the LED.  That's why LEDs (normally expected to have a lifespan exceeding 100,000 hours (11 years continuously lit)) in cheap bulbs or fixtures fail after a few months or a year or so.

 

Anyway, baben, I'm not having a go at you!  Just wanted to emphasise that in my professional and personal experience most automotive electronic boxes (indeed, most electronics) are very reliable and durable.  (The same cannot be said for things like connectors, for example, some of which are terrible.)

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Andy m

The only things you see that break the Electronics are welding and jump starting. 99% of returned electronics work if fitted to another vehicle, I get plenty of calls where something's had four fitted so it must be a bad batch (with date codes spread over three years!). 

 

The physical interactions between electronic, electrical and mechanical wear like any other. If you never change the brake fluid it will gunk up etc. 

 

One I don't understand is the rush to misdiagnose and change the most expensive bit. It's like telling a doctor you are a bit snotty and getting signed up there and then for a lung transplant. Weirdly the vehicle owners love it, "B***y ABS unit cost me £1200, I don't need it, but got to be fixed" somehow goes down better with their mates at the pub than "I failed to find a corroded connector for 3 days and a bloke had to use an actual test lamp and the correct wiring diagram for this vehicle". 

 

Adding a couple of accelerometers and a few more lines of code changes nothing on reliability. As note above, if the unit does move on it's mounts there is potential for having to confirm this, but it's probably something you can do on a bike by disconnecting the battery and counting to ten. What are the chances of even KTM not bolting the ABS unit down? 

 

Andy

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listener
12 hours ago, SteveThackery said:

HOWEVER, outside the automotive industry it isn't all like that. 

 

Most recent case being Apple's deliberate retardation of older iPhone speeds (without owners' consent).

 

There is however a general recognition that many manufacturers deliberately obstruct the repair of older kit by failing to provide adequate data and replacement components - or by charging ridiculous fees for those items.

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baben

Thanks for all this from the experts. I stand corrected and I am sure you are correct but the only faults I have experienced on my cars in the last twenty years have been electrical in nature, Having read the above posts however I am inclined to think the faults were with connections rather than the units themselves - most obvious one was an Octavia whose hazard warning lights would  come on at random. Then there was the VW with self lowering electric windows.  But what is happening in ESA shock units on BMWs which fail? This is a well documented concern, what is going on. I am curious and would like to know what people who understand these things think.  Oh, and what about those Toyotas that went rogue a few years ago?

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Andy m

Part pricing is a product life plan. 

 

Sell it to the OEM at cost plus next to nothing to create an aftermarket demand. Miss this bus and there are no further sales. 

During the first life sell in competition with the OEM at the market price. 

During the second life when the OEM drops out sell as a virtual monopoly (knock offs permitting) 

End the product at the point when production resources call for this and force the market to update. 

 

AM pricing is always set by the threshold at which petrol and matches is more convenient than repair. 

 

If you want to distort the market so manufacturers have to offer an O-ring for a 1979 Capri at the 1990 price, you can expect prices to rise and choice to fall because you have to account for a design potential where this O-ring turns out to swell in the exact same time frame the vehicle becomes a retro-classic. If the tooling is ****ed you need it in the plan to buy more. Controlling the knowledge on how to use the part is also part of the plan, you do the R&D, it's your knowledge. 

 

I find it ridiculous that water, hops and yeast costs £3.50 a pint, but I am pretty sure the brewer has skills I do not and needs to make a living. If he doesn't we'll end up drinking Fosters instead of beer. 

 

Andy

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Andy m

The ESA shock is a rotary valve, a sort of servo motor that opens and closes holes in the piston or some sort of bypass. I would suspect someone didn't account for the start-up load when cold or having stood for a while. Soldered joints or thin wire or where the wire meets the plug would be where I'd start, but only guessing based on similar products rarely used on trucks. 

 

Andy

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listener
1 minute ago, baben said:

Having read the above posts however I am inclined to think the faults were with connections rather than the units themselves

 

When it comes to electrical/electronic stuff most of the problems lay in connections.

 

The standard of soldering these days is shocking - dry joints, inadequate solder coverage, 'whiskers' which can short over to adjacent conductors.

I've also see some cases of the robot not inserting a component properly.

 

But it's usually off-board connection issues like corrosion, bent pins, foreign objects*.

 

*When I was at college during the late 70s, one 'trick' that was played on us bikers was to insert a piece of paper in the spark-plug cap.

First time it happened to me, I was close to pushing the bike the half mile around to a nearby dealer when someone said, "check your spark-plug cap". :angry:

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SteveThackery
12 hours ago, baben said:

Thanks for all this from the experts. I stand corrected and I am sure you are correct but the only faults I have experienced on my cars in the last twenty years have been electrical in nature, Having read the above posts however I am inclined to think the faults were with connections rather than the units themselves - most obvious one was an Octavia whose hazard warning lights would  come on at random. Then there was the VW with self lowering electric windows.  But what is happening in ESA shock units on BMWs which fail? This is a well documented concern, what is going on. I am curious and would like to know what people who understand these things think.  Oh, and what about those Toyotas that went rogue a few years ago?

 

Yes, you've hit the nail on the head: "electrical" and "electronic" are very different things.  Electronics are things like silicon chips, transistors, resistors, capacitors, some types of sensors, etc.  Those have great reliability and lifespan (notwithstanding what I said about overloading them, which will kill them quickly).

 

Electricals are things like wires, switches, connectors.  Plenty of things to go wrong there - especially when they are not adequately sealed against harsh environments.  Also moving parts in switches can wear out.  Electrical contacts in switches can suffer from burning and erosion, and are particularly sensitive to contamination from the environment.

 

And then we have electro-mechanicals, such as parts of ABS systems, electrically controllable shocks, electric motors, solenoids, relays (although you might argue they belong in electricals).  They suffer all the usual ageing mechanisms of mechanical systems in general: primarily wear, but also material failure (e.g. elastomers getting brittle), sticking due to lubricant failure or dirt ingress, and other stuff you can imagine for yourself.

 

Obviously electronic boxes do fail sometimes (everything does), but virtually always when something fails in a vehicle it'll be mechanical, electro-mechanical or electrical, rather than electronic.

 

There is one last thing we haven't mentioned: software failures.  When I was a reliability engineer this was an area of great interest to me.  Virtually all software failures are due to mistakes in the design or implementation (i.e. bugs).  Just very occasionally a memory location can get hit by a cosmic ray and lose it's charge, causing a malfunction, but that is exceedingly rare.  The same can happen if there is a lot of electrical noise around.  However, most ECUs are very well protected against electrical noise these days, so basically software failures are pretty well always due to bugs.  Most bugs manifest in one of two ways: either a specific malfunction that always happens when the necessary combination or sequence of events occurs; or a crash (a freeze, where the system just stops responding).

 

Safety critical software systems, including those in vehicles, have measures to mitigate against crashes.  These include things like watchdog timers, whereby the software - when correctly running - regularly resets an electronic timer circuit.  If the software crashes and stops "patting" the watchdog timer, it times out and resets the system - which thus suffers only a brief moment of downtime before it comes back into operation again.

 

Where safety is super-critical, such as aircraft flight control systems, software malfunctions are protected against using diversity and triple redundancy with two-out-of-three voting.  Diversity means that each of the three systems are written by different software teams (usually from different companies), so there's virtually no chance that they would ever suffer the same bugs.  In flight all three computers run simultaneously, and all three should give identical outputs.  If - due to a bug - one of them disagrees, then the voting system kicks in and the two that agree "win".  I don't know what happens if all three disagree!  :-) 

 

I've never heard of any software-related problems in ECUs, so we are probably still talking about electrical or electro-mechanical failures as the primary source of problems in our bikes.

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SteveThackery
11 hours ago, SteveThackery said:

I don't know what happens if all three disagree!  :-) .

 

Actually I guess that's when the pilot gets to earn his £200k per year.  :)

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