DCT creep then won't switch to/from Neutral

[bluemak 215]

Riding in to work as normal; but I found that at the lights the bike (Integra 2012) wanted to creep at idle (which may have been a little high).  I have to swipe a barrier to enter the car park so tried to select neutral as I fumbled for the pass.  It wouldn't select but would switch between S and D.  Put down side stand.  Started OK but wouldn't leave N even with side stand up (not sure that is an issue as the problems started before so I think side stand is a red herring). 

 

I see mention of a DCT reset - but can't see a link to the process - so haven't tried this yet.  I can't see this issue in the forum discussions and other than a reset I can't see any posts that seem directly relevant.

 

It has been recently serviced and not done a lot of miles since - but I've not noticed either of these issues before.

 

Any suggestions before I pick up the phone to the dealer? 

 

Thanks

[bluemak 215]

Trying this - but no luck

- Get aboard the bike and start the motor.

- With the transmission key in N for neutral, switch-off the ignition to stop the motor.

- With the ignition off, press AND HOLD the switch into ‘D’.

- Switch the ignition on but DON’T START THE MOTOR.

- Wait until you see in the dashboard display the yellow symbol for the motor disappearing, then let go of the D key that you've been pressing.

- Now the tricky bit: as fast as you can, press the sequence:

D D N D N.

- In the dashboard display, BOTH the letters D and S should appear.

- Turn on the motor, but don’t touch the throttle.

- After a few seconds, the letters D and S extinguish.

- Select “N” and turn off the ignition key. Done.

 

Still left with DS in the display after a minute of so - tried a number of times

 

Any thoughts?

[neojynx 722]

Try disconnecting the battery for a few hours - no guarantees, but may work..

[ChrisCB 6,653]

As it's  just had a service I'd ring the dealer to confirm they used the right oil, clutches can drag even on DCT with the wrong oil.

[poldark 1,509]

Put it onto the centre stand and switch ignition on  but don't start. IIRC do this 2/3 times and it'll cycle the clutch each time to take it back to Neutral 

 

Clearly too high tickover will stop you accessing Neutral, not sure how it's adjusted but dealer visit due, plus to confirm correct 10W30 used, not their default 10W40.

[bluemak 215]

I see on another forum someone says

 

If the '-' starts blinking rapidly at 1/2 second intervals then the calibration process failed, shut of the ignition and repeat from Step 2.

 

That's what I've got - so I think it's time to call the dealer.

[rjp996 1,091]

sounds like the issue is the tick over is to high, and the consequence is that the DCT is acting as it is. An example would be when i start my bike initially and the tick over is high as running 'cold start' i cant engage the DCT until rev;s drop. I would be looking at the reason for the high tick over - fuel sensor / cold start, incorrect set slack on throttle cable (you said its just been serviced, is there slack on throttle)

[poldark 1,509]

Easily sorted (temporarily) by just applying rear foot brake, this'll slow the engine and allow D selection.

[DaveM59 1,603]

Definitely too fast idle.

Don't start messing with reset procedures while this problem is there or you will be doing it all again when sorted.

Flick the throttle open a few times and see if the idle drops, my guess is the dealer has taken a bit too much slack out of the throttle cable.

[bluemak 215]

2 hours ago, rjp996 said:

sounds like the issue is the tick over is to high, and the consequence is that the DCT is acting as it is. An example would be when i start my bike initially and the tick over is high as running 'cold start' i cant engage the DCT until rev;s drop. I would be looking at the reason for the high tick over - fuel sensor / cold start, incorrect set slack on throttle cable (you said its just been serviced, is there slack on throttle)

Thanks Richard and DaveM59.  It is an interesting idea - but I have ridden it a few times since the service and had hot and cold starts with no issue on the gear mode selection and I've not noticed the creeping before either.  The bikes gone in now - but I don't think I felt the throttle grip was behaving any differently to before or to the NC750X they've just lent me. 

[Griff 1,556]

You just need to be sure that You also used the correct reset procedure for the year of Your bike. For instance my current 2017 750 has a different reset procedure to my former 2012 700.  I am wondering as to the ambient temperature when the service was done ?  If done during the summer then perhaps the recent drop in temperatures may have resulted in the requirement for a reset to sort things out ?

[embee 7,288]

First thing I'd check in your circumstances is the oil level. Dealers are notorious for overfilling.

 

The DCT clutch initialisation procedure allows the ECU to "learn" the clutch take-up points, it will work only when at normal operating temperature, if it is not hot enough it displays "L" in the gear display, either a lower case or upper case depending how low the temp is. It is not that uncommon for the process to "fail", if it does just repeat it.

 

What idle speed are you getting? It's all very well folk saying idle is too high, but what is it? There is no adjustment as such, the idle speed is regulated by the ECU. If for some reason the throttle is not closing fully then obviously the speed will be too high plus the gear selection will not work properly if it thinks the throttle is open at all. This is a possible reason for your issues. I think from memory the hot idle on mine is typically 1200rpm give or take a little (just checked manual and it states 1200 +/-100rpm). With the engine off and you open the throttle a little and let go you should be able to hear the throttle lever down on the engine hitting the closed stop, if you can't hear it click it may be hanging up for some reason.

 

The two throttle cables should have just a little free play between them with the throttle closed. You can feel this if you rock the twistgrip back and forth gently with fingertips. If you can't feel any free-play the cables are adjusted too tight, the adjuster is in one of the metal cable guides coming out of the twistgrip (top one).

 

The last slightly more concerning possibility with your bike is the gear selector pivot pin may have failed. This was a known fault on some early bikes, especially 2012 Intergas. I changed mine as a precaution. It doesn't cause creep but can cause erratic shifting or locking in gear. Yours may well be perfectly OK and it is just the other issues as discussed. As far as I know it should still do the DCT initialisation procedure because that doesn't actually select any gears.

[Mike5100 2,061]

I had the flashing '-' sign in my Africa Twin display after attempting the reset immediately after a ride.  The next day when I warmed the bike up from cold and did it again it worked (and cured the creep).  If your bike is a post 2016 DCT I seem to remember that you have to hold the throttle fully open while doing the DDNDN thing.

Mike

[Griff 1,556]

2 hours ago, Mike5100 said:

I had the flashing '-' sign in my Africa Twin display after attempting the reset immediately after a ride.  The next day when I warmed the bike up from cold and did it again it worked (and cured the creep).  If your bike is a post 2016 DCT I seem to remember that you have to hold the throttle fully open while doing the DDNDN thing.

Mike

 

Just to add to that, on my 2017 the throttle isn't touched, so the procedure seems to be year specific. However the OP's bike is a 2012 Integra.   

[SteveThackery 3,090]

The reason it won't select neutral is because of the creep.  When the gears are under torque, the undercut sides on the dogs lock them into place.  That's why, on any bike, you have to remove the torque before you can change gear.

 

The creep can have two causes: excessively fast idle (which seems unlikely to me because it's controlled by the ECU, unless a throttle cable is sticking/tight), or the clutches are out of calibration.  The latter is easy to fix using the reset procedure.  The former will probably be due to a faulty sensor, along the lines embee suggested.  The dealer should be able to sort that out, or you could do it yourself if you've got the workshop manual.

 

The only other possibility is a mechanical fault in the gearbox; see embee's final paragraph.

[bluemak 215]

So it was fixed by the dealer and it was a software reset to the DCT.  It was the code sequence but it wasn't just me that couldn't do it quick enough!  They had to find a younger technician with faster thumbs from texting.  Apparently they often need a reset at certain mileages.

 

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions folks.

[ChrisCB 6,653]

7 minutes ago, bluemak said:

So it was fixed by the dealer and it was a software reset to the DCT.  It was the code sequence but it wasn't just me that couldn't do it quick enough!  They had to find a younger technician with faster thumbs from texting.  Apparently they often need a reset at certain mileages.

 

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions folks.

 

That old chestnut 😁

[Griff 1,556]

4 hours ago, bluemak said:

So it was fixed by the dealer and it was a software reset to the DCT.  It was the code sequence but it wasn't just me that couldn't do it quick enough!  They had to find a younger technician with faster thumbs from texting.  Apparently they often need a reset at certain mileages.

 

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions folks.

 

So not the usual reset procedure then ?

[biggestelk 4]

Happened to me a couple of times too on my Integra.  Creeped when I stopped, wouldn't drop into N.  Then when restarted wouldn't go into gear.  I think the revs were too high, though why I don't know! Next service I'll ask them to check the firmware is up to date in the ECU. 

[embee 7,288]

19 hours ago, biggestelk said:

…... Next service I'll ask them to check the firmware is up to date in the ECU. 

That'll be an interesting conversation.