I think my NC might be terminal - total loss of power

[fred_jb 10,264]

55 minutes ago, SteveThackery said:

 

What I would say, though, is that bikes are much more reliable now than they were back then.  I would argue that - whilst Graham is undoubtedly correct - it's really pretty rare for an ECU or its associated sensors to fail.  When they do, and it disables the bike, then of course it's definitely not a roadside repair.  We've gained a lot of reliability, at the cost of much less home-repairability.  We should also acknowledge that a lot of the stuff is there because of emission regs; i.e. not necessarily the "fault" of the manufacturers.

 

 

It is all very well Graham harking back to a golden age when everything was mechanically simple with no electronics, but I seem to remember it was also a time when a family car struggled to do more than about 25 miles to the gallon, while belching out uncontrolled amounts of noxious fumes.  With the growth in numbers of vehicles on the road, if this was still the case today we would have much worse air quality than we do, and it isn't great now.

[SteveThackery 3,090]

47 minutes ago, fred_jb said:

It is all very well Graham harking back to a golden age when everything was mechanically simple with no electronics, but I seem to remember it was also a time when a family car struggled to do more than about 25 miles to the gallon, while belching out uncontrolled amounts of noxious fumes.  With the growth in numbers of vehicles on the road, if this was still the case today we would have much worse air quality than we do, and it isn't great now.

 

Yes, an unwanted side effect of the "simplicity" of carbs (actually some aren't simple), points, condensers, magnetos, etc, is that the bikes developed less power and polluted the air more.  Also, most did less mpg if you compare like-for-like performance.

[Tex 36,816]

Fred & Steve, bang on lads. Do we really want to go back to having to fully service a vehicle (as a precaution) before even a simple holiday trip? Not me!

 

My AA career (1989-2009) encompassed the last of the old technology (carbs and distributors) and the beginnings of the current one. I got more of the early cars going at the roadside - but I did a hell of a lot more breakdowns. A rainy day in somewhere like Brighton could see 17 or 18 jobs in an 8 hour shift. A quick clean out of the cap and a squirt of Duck Oil on the leads and on to the next one!
 

Modern cars start in the rain, but when they stop they really stop!  

[Mr Toad 9,022]

12 hours ago, Graham NZ said:

All this reminds me of the old saying, "If it doesn't have one it can't fall off or break down."

 

Life was so much simpler when engines had just a carburetor you could dismantle and clean, a magneto with only points to adjust or even a coil ignition system where you could easily carry enough spare parts to replace the whole system at the roadside.

 

Look at the latest BMWs and similar and wonder what joys await their owners when the bikes get old.  Will they become too expensive to repair, their faults too difficult to diagnose, but the bikes still too valuable to scrap?  I fear that all of those things are likely.

 

No wonder many people don't keep their new cars and bikes for longer than their warranty periods.  Maybe that's all the manufacturers want to happen anyway so build them just well enough to get through the warranty period plus a small safety margin?

 

A well known motoring writer here once said, 'If you can't afford to buy a new German car you can't afford to buy an old

one.'  I wonder what he would say about all modern cars and motorcycles?

 

In some ways the modern world has gone tech mad.  My GP spends far more time looking at his computer screen than he does at me.  Have car and bike mechanics become more reliant on computers than spanners?  Heaven (now there is a huge myth) help us all if we can't afford to buy only new bikes.

 

As of November this year HD no longer guarantee to supply parts for Buells.  That should concern me but since my bike was new 12 years ago the only original part needed was a footrest so I think I'll risk keeping it, if just to look at and remember the wonderful rides we've had together.  Yes, it has a TPS which needs to be zeroed occasionally but my simple diagnostic tool can do that easily.

 

Here in NZ it costs five times as much to register an over 400cc bike as it does a car.  A bike over 25 years old is about the same as a car.  Maybe it's time to get one of those lovely old bikes from the 60s or 70s after all?  With modern tyres and suspension bits they may not be too bad even now.

 

I think you're looking back through rose tinted glasses.

 

I'm afraid the reality was that if it didn't have one it still broke down and far more regularly.

 

I started driving in 1974 and I still remember that seeing cars and bikes broken down at the side of the road on a depressingly regular basis. Today that is something of a rarity. In fact it has become such a rare occurrence that many of the hard shoulders on our motorways that were completely free of broken down vehicles have been turned into a fourth lane.

 

As for the motoring journo I have to wonder what he was well known for? 

 

I had a 2000 Merc SL AMG and kept it for 15 years, non of my previous vehicles were as reliable. During the entire 15 years of ownership it never once broke down and the only cost of ownership was replacing consumable parts. On one occasion I couldn't get the transmission out of Park into Drive, however, there was a manual override switch you could press with a screwdriver or pencil. That was simply a failed micro switch that cost under £5 to replace. 

 

I'm currently driving round in 10 year old Fiat that has never let me down. I've had a few minor issues that was solved with a cheap ODBII reader off fleabay and some free software for my laptop to tell me which sensor was playing up, and it was always a sensor and nothing mechanical. So far.........

 

I also had a BMW R1100RS, it was a 1994 ex demo bike. I put 185,000 miles on it in 5 years and that broke down only once.  One morning I started it and it would tick over but not rev. I phoned BMW and they knew straight away what the problem was. It was a 90p reed relay that cut the fuel supply in case of an accident that had failed. They told me which wires to short to bypass it and posted me one free of charge.

 

You think the modern world has gone tech mad but is that a bad thing? One of the reasons is that the mechanical parts are better made with better tolerances and have become generally more reliable and one of the things that helps keep them reliable is the plethora of electronic sensors that continuously monitor them. They can then shut things down to prevent possibly catastrophic and expensive failures. Yes, you have an additional step to check the sensor isn't faulty but that's far better than having to take the engine apart looking for some undefined problem or to replace a lot mangled parts.

 

Anyone that has have ever watched programs like Wheeler Dealers will attest to the fact that often potentially expensive problems have turned out to be a relatively cheap electronic sensor or wiring fault that were fixed for a few quid.

 

There's also a reason your GP spends more time looking at his computer. They don't have X-ray vision and they usually can't see what's wrong with you. You could go back to the time when you reeled off a list of what you felt were symptoms and they gave you drugs based on that and told you to come back in a two weeks if you didn't improve at which time they'd try something else and hope, emphasis on hope, that would work.

 

These days they take samples and get them tested and the results, via the computer, tell them exactly what's wrong, they then know what to give you to fix it. 

 

Yes there will always be examples of modern cars failing for all sorts of reasons but in the main they are much more reliable than older cars. Cars and bikes have moved on mechanically and electronically and you have a choice. You can update your skills and tools to cope or you can pay someone else or, as you suggest, buy an old car/bike that matches your current skill set. 

 

 

[Grumpy old man 4,670]

I'm not complaining about the bikes, the performance,  or the reliability but what I've got to ask myself is" can afford to carry on biking when I can't do this sort of maintenance for my self" it is becoming a rich man's hobby and sadly I'm not rich,  especially next year,.😒

[Slowboy 20,359]

23 minutes ago, Mr Toad said:

...You can update your skills and tools to cope or you can pay someone else or, as you suggest, buy an old car/bike that matches your current skill set. 

 

Thats it in a nutshell (all of it, but I agree completely with the summary)

I like to think I retain some capacity to learn for a while yet, it's all that's keeps the old grey porridge working and makes things interesting.

Modern stuff is way more reliable, significantly cleaner and way better performing, than anything that's gone before. Long may it continue.

[DaveM59 1,603]

On 21/11/2019 at 12:11, embee said:

This from the NC700 wiring diagram

 

It would certainly be worth taking the connector off and checking the state of the contacts, I've had experience of tarnished connector pins on my NC.

There is a closed throttle setting procedure for the throttle body so the ECU can learn when the butterfly is closed (needed for idle speed control apart from anything else), might be worth doing that. It involves disconnecting things and shorting out pins, turning on/off etc, the usual sort of stuff. You need the correct procedure for the model year, I only have a 700 manual.

Thats why I thought no MAP as it's part of the throttle body and TPS, I was expecting it to be a separate item in the airflow between air filter and throttle.

[Mr Toad 9,022]

7 hours ago, Grumpy old man said:

Must admit,  I  looked at the diagram above and thought time to.get rid of the NC I just dont understand it all and I don't really trust the people who are meant to do actually do + I can't really afford to use them.😪

Maybe just keep the old Crf at least things are easier to get at.

 

Why do you think that Lloyd. Yes at first glance the diagram is a mass of lines and colours but once you take a moment to get past that it's all simple stuff and you're not trying to understand the whole thing.

 

In this case we're talking about the MAP and TPS sensors and that only involves 4 wires, just 4, and 2 of those will be Gnd and power. All the diagram does is show you the colour of the wires you need to find.

 

All you need then is to find out what the readings on the TPS should be and that is perfectly explained in Andy's video. As long as the resistance reads as per the spec the sensor is fine. If it doesn't replace the sensor. Same goes for the MAP. 

 

Some sensors are even simpler, they turn on or off so you will either see a voltage or not, on or off. 

 

I'm sure you're more than capable of getting your head round it once you get past the idea that you need to 'see' something wrong before you can fix it and adjust to the fact that a simple multi-meter becomes your eyes and does the seeing. You just do the changing.  

[Mr Toad 9,022]

What I really need is a grammar update!

 

Past, really, what an idiot. I meant passed of course.  

[SteveThackery 3,090]

45 minutes ago, Grumpy old man said:

I'm not complaining about the bikes, the performance,  or the reliability but what I've got to ask myself is" can afford to carry on biking when I can't do this sort of maintenance for my self" it is becoming a rich man's hobby and sadly I'm not rich,  especially next year,.😒

 

I'm skint, too, unfortunately.  

 

However, I think you'd be surprised at just how easily you can learn this stuff.  It's just not that hard and with your experience and brain you could definitely get on top of it.  Honestly!

 

This is going to sound horribly un-PC, but you must have realised by now that the techs in your motorcycle dealer's workshop or not geniuses - they're just ordinary blokes, and if they can learn to handle modern bikes, you definitely can.

[Trev 18,572]

1 hour ago, Grumpy old man said:

I'm not complaining about the bikes, the performance,  or the reliability but what I've got to ask myself is" can afford to carry on biking when I can't do this sort of maintenance for my self" it is becoming a rich man's hobby and sadly I'm not rich,  especially next year,.😒

 

It's been painted as that by the seeming 'need' to continually upgrade to next years model and Goretex 12 kit with level gazillion armour but in reality, biking can still be enjoyed on a small budget. Get yourself and 'old bike' (anything pre abut 2005 seems to qualify), service it yourself, check out the Bay of Fleas for reasonably priced second hand kit, don't get drawn into the 'newer is better' cobblers, give dick (and breast) comparison Sunday morning bike meets a miss and get out on the road and enjoy yourself. I've got eight (yes 8) bikes that in total cost me less than my mates BMW XR1000 thingy that he can't afford the warranty and service payments on and most of mine are going up in value not down and most are bloody good fun to own and ride.

[Grumpy old man 4,670]

44 minutes ago, SteveThackery said:

 

I'm skint, too, unfortunately.  

 

However, I think you'd be surprised at just how easily you can learn this stuff.  It's just not that hard and with your experience and brain you could definitely get on top of it.  Honestly!

 

This is going to sound horribly un-PC, but you must have realised by now that the techs in your motorcycle dealer's workshop or not geniuses - they're just ordinary blokes, and if they can learn to handle modern bikes, you definitely can.

The difference between me and the techies in the shop is, they have the gear, tools ,diagnostic equipment,  back up, spare parts to hand for elimination and they are spending some one else's money+ I  sometimes doubt they know what they are doing that's why we get terrible feedback about them. I'll keep biking as long as I can but maybe with just one bike and I think that could be the Crf.

Come on OP put that vid up.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Grumpy old man

[embee 7,288]

6 minutes ago, Grumpy old man said:

Come on OP put that vid up.

… there was an OP?

[alhendo1 3,031]

14 minutes ago, embee said:

there was an OP?

Love it👍

[Andy m 23,473]

I'm not sure what "gear" everyone thinks is required? 

 

The NC has a blink code. You need bit of wire, paper clip, needle nose pliers, the more conductive sort of apprentice etc. 

 

 

 

Components (and it is usually a pin or squashed bit of loom) can be checked with a meter Aldi will sell you for a tenner. 

 

Visually inspecting seals etc. hasn't changed. 

 

If you really want it and have 70 quid, item 233393650135 on the auction site and an OBD2 reader mean you no longer have to be able to read morse. 

 

My test lamp and a compression tester for the CL cost me about the same. 

 

So, having blown the price of a rear tyre or three hours labour you are pretty much ready to go. 

 

Andy

 

 

 

[Tex 36,816]

I’m betting the OP (remember him?) will find something simple. No engine light suggests that all is well as far as the ECU can tell. I once f***ed about for ages on a Ford Sierra that barely ran. Turned out that the rag he kept under the bonnet to wipe the dipstick had been sucked into the air intake and had jammed up in the bend on said intake. 
 

Another time, a Montego had done a 3 point turn on a country lane and backed into a soft earth bank putting a six inch deep ‘plug’ of earth into the exhaust. It would start, but not rev. 
 

I would be checking that kids (or a disgruntled neighbour) haven’t shoved a potato up the exhaust..

 

We really do need that video.. 

[jeremyr62 2,538]

"What I would say, though, is that bikes are much more reliable now than they were back then."

 

I agree with this. I had a FJR1300 from 2004 to 2018. Did ~150,000 km. Nothing significant failed on it. I will admit to being pretty good at maintenance.  Corrosion took its toll ,but it was reassuringly reliable in all weathers.

[Tex 36,816]

Just re read the original post , OK we can forget the potato up the exhaust as it happened at 60 mph. Can’t rule out a blocked cat though. That would have exactly the same effect and, as the cat comes after the lambda sensor, there will be no warning light because as far as the ECU is concerned everything is tickety boo. Blocked cats are common on cars, less so on bikes but most bikes do (a) a pathetic low mileage and (b) most standard exhausts end up being chucked away.

 

Where is the air intake on the X? Could have sucked a leaf or plastic bag up there. Sounds to me as though it’s getting/passing enough air to idle OK but insufficient to rev and actually produce torque. 

[Slowboy 20,359]

4 hours ago, Grumpy old man said:

The difference between me and the techies in the shop is, they have the gear, tools ,

I have three socket sets , 1/4" drive, 3/8" drive and 1/2" drive none of which was expensive. ( think Lidl) If I've ever broken part of it it got replaced with the better quality stuff from Halfords. When I needed a really big socket i bought one on its own. I have a couple of torque wrenches. And I have several (many) open ended and ring spanners, again not expensive. My kit's been built up over many years.

I have a few screwdrivers too, and some hammers😈

My only indulgence was a hydraulic bike lift bought about 10 years ago when I got fed up lying on the ground. Worth every penny.

oh and three tyre levers, 'cause I change my own tyres.

Quote

 

diagnostic equipment

See AndyM's post

Quote

back up, spare parts to hand for elimination

Not necessary, a multimeter will eliminate most electrical items, but you'll need the manual for values. You wouldn't keep a spare crankshaft just in case for instance, or a spare gearbox?.

Quote

and they are spending some one else's money+ I  sometimes doubt they know what they are doing that's why we get terrible feedback about them. I'll keep biking as long as I can but maybe with just one bike and I think that could be the Crf.

There are really good people out there as well, and they are not that hard to find, a few recommendations from fellow riders is as good a way as any, but they tend to be independent.

Both my NC and my CRF were self serviced, both were/are easy to look after. The CRF has valve shims which makes it a bit more fiddly, but it only needs checking/doing every 16,000 miles. Cost wise there is virtually nothing in it, except for tyres and a bit more oil.

Quote

Come on OP put that vid up.

We could just turn up at his house with our kit and sort it for him, it would be worth it for the entertainment he's given us these winter days and nights.😁

Edited November 22, 2019 by slowboy
Creepe speeling

[Grumpy old man 4,670]

54 minutes ago, slowboy said:

could just turn up at his house with our kit and sort it for him, it would be worth it for the entertainment he's given us these winter days and nights.😁

Edited 48 minutes ago by slowboy
Creepe speeling

Now that would be great and we/I  would learn a lot.

As for the mechanical things I don't have a problem, I  checked the valves on the CRF  last Friday, it took about 11/4 hours (all in spec) but electrics frighten me😨 perhaps once retired and time isn't the same problem I'll learn more.

 

Thanks all for the encouragement 

Lloyd 

[pmjones79 27]

On 20/11/2019 at 13:04, shiggsy said:

When I compression tested mine I was able to get to the fuel pump connector without removing a load of plastics. Might have had to removes a bolt \ plastic grommet ot two, but its just reachable.

How did you carry out the compression test?

I think i'm missing something out.  I have removed both spark plugs.  Screwed the compression tester into one of the spark plug holes.  Disconnected the fuel pump...Nothing.  I even tried reconnecting the fuel pump.  The ignition comes on, but no sign of compression at all.

[pmjones79 27]

4 hours ago, Andy m said:

I'm not sure what "gear" everyone thinks is required? 

 

The NC has a blink code. You need bit of wire, paper clip, needle nose pliers, the more conductive sort of apprentice etc. 

 

 

 

Components (and it is usually a pin or squashed bit of loom) can be checked with a meter Aldi will sell you for a tenner. 

 

Visually inspecting seals etc. hasn't changed. 

 

If you really want it and have 70 quid, item 233393650135 on the auction site and an OBD2 reader mean you no longer have to be able to read morse. 

 

My test lamp and a compression tester for the CL cost me about the same. 

 

So, having blown the price of a rear tyre or three hours labour you are pretty much ready to go. 

 

Andy

 

 

 

The annoying thing about this is that I am not getting any sign of a fault code at all.  I have had a fault code in the past when I damaged the rear ABS ring during a tyre change so I know what to expect when I get one.

Thank you

[Tex 36,816]

16 minutes ago, pmjones79 said:

How did you carry out the compression test?

I think i'm missing something out.  I have removed both spark plugs.  Screwed the compression tester into one of the spark plug holes.  Disconnected the fuel pump...Nothing.  I even tried reconnecting the fuel pump.  The ignition comes on, but no sign of compression at all.

You are cranking the engine, yeah? On full throttle?

[outrunner 4,457]

25 minutes ago, Tex said:

You are cranking the engine, yeah? On full throttle?

I was going to say that Tex, but you beat me to it. I have watched my mate do compression tests, and always with a fully open throttle.

 

 

Andy.

[embee 7,288]

Compression test

- make sure the battery is fully charged to get a decent cranking speed

- arguably it should be done hot, but a comparative test can be done cold

- remove both plugs and fit the compression gauge into one plug

- disable the fuelling and either disable the ignition (coils) or fit spark plugs into the caps and rest the plug body securely on a grounded part of the engine (without plugs in place the ignition can generate extremely high voltages which can track over the coil/lead/cap insulation and cause damage)

- hold the throttle wide open and crank for several seconds until the compression tester reading reaches a stable level, record this

- repeat for the other cylinder

- compare readings and compare to workshop quoted values

Edited November 22, 2019 by embee