DCT models - rear wheel removal

[Graham NZ 1,186]

My Service Manual doesn't seem to mention it but when removing, and especially when re-fitting the rear wheel, it makes the procedure much easier if the parking-brake caliper is removed from the carrier plate.  Just remove two setscrews and lower it down.  That way there is just the main-brake pads to align with the brake rotor as the wheel is juggled back into position.  A piece of 1" wood under the tyre helps to align things as the axle is refitted.  A garden spade with the blade under the tyre can also be used to lever the wheel up to help when refitting the axle if you have a helper.

 

The last set of Bridgestone BT31 tyres  lasted well enough so another is now on.  15,000km for the old front and 20,000km for the rear.  Typically I wear fronts faster than rears on all my bikes. Too many downhill corners may be why.

[outrunner 4,457]

Over 9000 miles from a tyre, are the roads in NZ made from cotton wool?

 

Andy.

[listener 11,158]

Just another normal day's commute in NZ ...  

 

[arengle 449]

50 minutes ago, outrunner said:

Over 9000 miles from a tyre, are the roads in NZ made from cotton wool?

 

Andy.

I think depends how you ride, on my NC I change the OEM tyres at 8000miles, front was just a little bit under the limit but the rear still had plenty in it at least another 2000 miles

[embee 7,288]

Yep, always drop the parking brake caliper off. As Graham says, just 2 bolts and it's out of the way. 

 

Remember to refit it afterwards! 

[Graham NZ 1,186]

Those km/tyre I'm getting on my NC are far greater than I've had on other bikes.  Why?  Not much power and modest braking.  Also I find this bike at it's most enjoyable when cruising along and taking in the scenery - a new experience for me.

 

My Buell delivers under 10,000km/rear tyre and a bit less on the front.  Why?  Pretty good power, lots of torque and a very powerful front brake.  It's also a lot lighter than my SD.  

[Graham NZ 1,186]

The Service Manual talks about fitting the rear axle from the left hand side.  I find it much easier from the right hand side.  That way you can use the axle to align the adjusting block in the swingarm and the brake caliper mounting plate before bringing the wheel into place and moving the disc rotor in between the caliper pads.

 

There is no stepping on the axle so it makes no difference to it which way it's inserted.

 

As well as a spade to lift the wheel to align it with the axle I use a 16mm dia wooden dowel inserted from the left hand side to pass through the adjusting block and then into the wheel about half way through.  Now it's easy to tap the axle through from the right and let it push the dowel back out.

 

Having a helper makes rear wheel refitting much easier.  My wife is used to that sort of thing......

 

 

[Graham NZ 1,186]

When my NC arrived with under 4.5k km on it the chain was in a sad state.

When cleaned and lubed the chain tension also needed attention.  That was done making sure the alignment graduations agreed but the chain wasn't running sweetly over the rear sprocket.  What gives? It turned out that either the graduations were suspect or the swingarm was out of true.

 

So I readjusted the chain as follows:

• The axle nut was slackened.
• The adjuster lock nuts were removed.
• The chain tension was adjusted using only the adjuster nuts so that the measured length of both adjuster rods behind the nuts were exactly the same.
• The chain now ran perfectly so the locknuts were added and tightened against the adjuster nuts carefully.

 My NC isn't the first bike where I've found the chain adjustment marks unreliable. Looking along chains to verify sprocket alignment has never convinced me as the perfect way to do it either, because chains can move laterally over the narrower sprocket teeth.  If alignment is out, the chain top run won't run silently and centrally over the rear sprocket top teeth.  It follows that any top chain-guard needs to be removed when adjusting a chain.

 

The original chain was replaced at 6,000km.

[embee 7,288]

6 hours ago, Graham NZ said:

…. My NC isn't the first bike where I've found the chain adjustment marks unreliable. ….

I always do a double check on any new-to-me bike too. My NC swingarm markings are as near as matters correct, which makes things simpler.

 

Using the measured length of the exposed adjuster studs is probably a lot less certain that any other method, unless they just happen to end up equal by pure chance. There are a lot of components in the "stack", many of which aren't necessarily intended or required to be consistent to any great degree (+/- 1mm on stud length for example). You may be lucky and it works out correct.

Certainly spinning the wheel to check the chain has no significant preference for which side of the clearance it runs is a wise step, something I always do and something which a centrestand makes possible.

 

The other things I don't like on the NC (not unusual, it's on other bikes too) is that the gaps for both the wheel but also the swingarm in the frame are significantly bigger than the relevant parts you fit in them. This is for ease of assembly. However it does mean a lot of "spring" in the parts when you tighten them, not a very nice condition in my mind.

When I had the swingarm out, I checked the gap and made a shim to take up most of the clearance to the frame lugs, IIRC it was around 0.7mm.

I did a similar thing for the wheel spindle, I fit a shim between the caliper bracket and the swingarm to take up some of the clearance here (the caliper stop on the swingarm is a peg-in-slot with loads of clearance so is not critical). It is necessary to check the alignment of the sprockets if you do this sort of interference, moving parts sideways may well upset alignment unless you balance it out, however I did it with shims placed such that the alignment was preserved (or even improved?), but you do need to be able to measure/check it reasonably accurately. 

 

The absolute alignment is a bit questionable anyway if you can see any run-out of the sprocket, particularly the rear one. Narrow chains like a 520 will "tolerate" small departures from perfect alignment, but the nearer correct the better.

 

Speaking of alignment, an interesting aside for any Deauville owners (shaft drive). The 650 never had any real issues with the final drive splines (spider in the wheel into the bevel drive), but a significant number of 700 Deaus had catastrophic wear of these splines. I have a 650, my friend has a 700 and his splines have shown noticeable wear. At 130k km he was getting a bit worried about the state of them. I found a near perfect final drive set (bevel drive and spider) from a VT750 for him on the auction site, they are the same assembly except for the plastic dust shield bolted to them.

I took his swingarm out to check everything over (and fit a new old stock shock for him, sourced in Italy). The 700 swingarm is a completely different item to the 650, the frame pivot arrangement is totally different, and I always suspected something in the 700 swingarm welded assembly wasn't right.

I set it up with a magnetic base on the output flange to check the alignment of the wheel spindle across the swingarm. Sure enough, the axis of the bevel drive was not concentric with the opposite side spindle boss, out by 1.5mm. Fortunately the bevel drive was forwards, so I could simply add a shim to the mounting flange to move it back by 1.5mm to get the output shaft alignment correct. There is plenty enough "plunge" movement available in the shaft to accommodate the 1.5mm.

He hasn't yet put any significant miles on it but one thing which was really noticeable was how smoothly the wheel rotated with the new assembly. I have to fit a new tyre and brake disc for him soon so we'll see how it's behaving (brake disc is original so has done 130k km, not bad).

 

Original alignment

 

1.5mm shim to fit between swingarm and final drive

 

Alignment with shim fitted

[Graham NZ 1,186]

Murray

A brilliant post, thanks.

 

Before relying on my adjuster studs I measured them and they were almost perfectly equal.  Far less than 0.5mm different.

 

Few Forum members will have your skill and resources but anyone confident to be adjusting a chain is sure to be able to remove the chainguard and to verify by sight, feel and sound that the chain is running sweetly over the rear sprocket.  When it is, the chain will be central on the sprocket teeth as it enters and leaves the sprocket, when turned slowly by hand in both directions.

 

 

[Graham NZ 1,186]

While I acknowledge the technical benefits of chain drive I'd rather my bikes were not.  My NC is the first chain driven bike I've had for a long time.

 

By comparison the belt drive on my Buell is so much easier to live with and the absence of transmission backlash gives a particularly direct feel between the twistgrip and rear tyre contact patch.  A fully enclosed belt would be the ideal system for me and I've made discrete additions on the Buell to get as close to that as possible.  Gravel surfaces never concern me on that bike.

 

Part of the reason why manufacturers choose chain drive is that it is much less demanding of manufacturing accuracy.  Chains can cope with some misalignment far better than belt of shaft drive can.

 

The Benelli Sei six and my Hybrid Honda four are the only bikes I'm aware of with a duplex chain rear drive.  Duplex chains have the advantage of smooth running but construction accuracy needs to be at least as high as for belts.  No mis-alignment or sprocket runout can be tolerated.

[Graham NZ 1,186]

When the new tyre was fitted a side-mounted valve  (silver so I can find it easier) was fitted allowing easier inflation from the brake side.  haven't needed to use it yet but soon, hopefully.

 

 

[MatBin 5,080]

I've long been a fan of single sided swing arms, or better still shaft drive but I guess with 54 bhp a shaft isn't really an option, chains are just do last century.

I use a "grease ninja" on mine and parafin to clean it.

[bazza 3,629]

On 22/03/2020 at 19:55, Graham NZ said:

While I acknowledge the technical benefits of chain drive I'd rather my bikes were not.  My NC is the first chain driven bike I've had for a long time.

 

By comparison the belt drive on my Buell is so much easier to live with and the absence of transmission backlash gives a particularly direct feel between the twistgrip and rear tyre contact patch.  A fully enclosed belt would be the ideal system for me and I've made discrete additions on the Buell to get as close to that as possible.  Gravel surfaces never concern me on that bike.

 

Part of the reason why manufacturers choose chain drive is that it is much less demanding of manufacturing accuracy.  Chains can cope with some misalignment far better than belt of shaft drive can.

 

The Benelli Sei six and my Hybrid Honda four are the only bikes I'm aware of with a duplex chain rear drive.  Duplex chains have the advantage of smooth running but construction accuracy needs to be at least as high as for belts.  No mis-alignment or sprocket runout can be tolerated.

totally agree re belts but apart from the after market kit made ( discussed here some time ago) not enough demand to get other makers excited.I had a couple of BMW 800s with belts and found them much nicer "drive wise" -add in DCT and you have the best possible!

[Rocker66 34,374]

2 hours ago, bazza said:

totally agree re belts but apart from the after market kit made ( discussed here some time ago) not enough demand to get other makers excited.I had a couple of BMW 800s with belts and found them much nicer "drive wise" -add in DCT and you have the best possible!

I liked the belt drive on our GPZ 305s

[embee 7,288]

2 hours ago, MatBin said:

I've long been a fan of single sided swing arms, or better still shaft drive but I guess with 54 bhp a shaft isn't really an option, chains are just do last century.

I use a "grease ninja" on mine and parafin to clean it.

Shaft worked fine on the Deauvilles. The 650 Deau was rated at around 57bhp if I remember right, and if you want the best of both worlds look no further than the NTV650/Revere. In many ways it was a better thing than the Deau …….

[MatBin 5,080]

4 hours ago, embee said:

Shaft worked fine on the Deauvilles. The 650 Deau was rated at around 57bhp if I remember right, and if you want the best of both worlds look no further than the NTV650/Revere. In many ways it was a better thing than the Deau …….

Indeed I had an R80RT BMW and it managed just fine with 50 German Horses, bit bigger than Japanese ones :-)

But would the performance be accepted these days?

[Rocker66 34,374]

1 minute ago, MatBin said:

Indeed I had an R80RT BMW and it managed just fine with 50 German Horses, bit bigger than Japanese ones :-)

But would the performance be accepted these days?

Considering the amount of speed cameras these days and the fact that many people are actually downsizing I think that the performance would be acceptable to many. I for one would love to see a modern Deauville.

[MatBin 5,080]

46 minutes ago, Rocker66 said:

Considering the amount of speed cameras these days and the fact that many people are actually downsizing I think that the performance would be acceptable to many. I for one would love to see a modern Deauville.

So long as it had DCT

Edited April 12, 2020 by MatBin
Spelling

[Rocker66 34,374]

1 minute ago, MatBin said:

So long as it had DCT

Maybe have the option of DCT but if only DCT I would be looking elsewhere.

[Graham NZ 1,186]

,While I hate the messiness of chains it takes me only five minutes to lube it every 300km or so and fifteen minutes to clean it with kerosene and re-lube it every 1,000km.

 

Using Putoline DX11 produces virtually no fling and the bike lives happily enough on the carpeted garage floor without mess.  All in all I've learned to live with it, along with the modest power and torque, which to be fair are more than enough on public roads in these speed-restricted times. 

[WoodyAU 11]

Having gone to the Integra to keep myself on two wheels as I succumb to the ravages of age and injury, I must admit I sorely miss the power, shaft drive and tank between my legs of my old K75. Not a particularly powerful or agile bike by some standards, but I stuck with it because it was reliable, easy to fix and maintain and would still do twice the speed limit. The Integra is what I need and I will put up with the chain as much as it shits me. I am not one to change bikes quickly, had the BMW for 15yrs and expect to have the Integra for the same amount of time. Should be good electric bikes by then.

[Tex 36,816]

 

7 hours ago, WoodyAU said:

The Integra is what I need and I will put up with the chain as much as it shits me.

 

The chain on my Integra had much the same effect on me, actually.  

 

[MatBin 5,080]

On 13/04/2020 at 00:37, WoodyAU said:

Having gone to the Integra to keep myself on two wheels as I succumb to the ravages of age and injury, I must admit I sorely miss the power, shaft drive and tank between my legs of my old K75. Not a particularly powerful or agile bike by some standards, but I stuck with it because it was reliable, easy to fix and maintain and would still do twice the speed limit. The Integra is what I need and I will put up with the chain as much as it shits me. I am not one to change bikes quickly, had the BMW for 15yrs and expect to have the Integra for the same amount of time. Should be good electric bikes by then.

I found the K75S less torquey than my R80RT, so less "usable". The 75 rotted/rusted, hated being started and immediately stopped, often requiring a 3 plug swap to get it going again, the only bike I have owned that needed a new clutch (at very low mileage), my R80 clutch was changed as a precaution at 120,000 miles. All in all I didn't like the K75S but it was lovely to look at. There were a number of other things that went wrong with it, or were poorly designed, maybe it was a Friday afternoon model.

[Andy m 23,472]

7 hours ago, MatBin said:

 or were poorly designed, maybe it was a Friday afternoon model.

 

Matches my K100 experience. 

 

The BMW design philosophy seems mental to me. On one hand they rush a panic design based on a Peugeot car engine into production because their twin was a 40 year old design pushed to the limit. They sensibly wang on bits like the Bosch FI from their car division because they know them. They then allow weird rubbish like the twist grip through where the two gears required to turn the twist into a cable pull along the axis of the handlebar triple the number of parts. To save some cost back they make these gears out of cheese. The massive red triangle on the dash was another one. This looks like a device for telling you the Russian tanks just rolled or something equally serious, but actually just tells you the resistance in the brake light circuit is off, it can't actually detect a lot of lamp faults. Some components like the exhaust system have no thought for weight while others are straight off a Ural and flimsy . This really was homework done on the school bus level. 

 

Of course they then went one step further and bought the whole F650 design from the Italians! 

 

Andy