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Spindizzy

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Spindizzy

Just a couple on chains to cut through some of the BS

 

 

 

 

Edited by Spindizzy
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Spindizzy

More support of the gear oil route. Some swearing, children look away.

 

 

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Spindizzy

Due to extreme levels of boredom and cabin fever I resorted to delving back in to the murky world of chain maintenance. Most of it is supposition, superstition, claimed 'facts' without evidence, religious lube fanatics and the downright weird. Having enjoyed Youtube videos and websites of all types both amateur and professional a few interesting nuggets come out of it. It breaks down to.

1. Don't bother, doesn't need cleaning/lubing

2. Smother it in tacky gloop

3. Smother it in non tacky gloop

4. Use gear oil (often recommended by chain manufacturers and bike brands)

5. Use a Scottoiler or similar of your choice

6. Use one of umpteen snake oils

 

Cleaning is pretty much a mix of Kerosene, expensive dedicated chain cleaner, WD-40.

 

So what I determined after this barrage of infobesity is that tacky is bad, avoid tacky. Tacky makes grinding paste. Use an oiler if thats your thing. Wax lubes work ok until it rains.

 

Then there is the technical approach where you think about what lube actually does. Mostly on the outside its just corrosion resistance, also a bit of help for the rollers. The main action takes place inside the O ring boundary so don't try and affect that.  Some say any lube is a waste of time as the pressure of the rollers squeeze  it out anyway and thats not the main wear area.

What I am going to try, and feel free to wade in and call me a heretic is to clean it with either some of the Kerosene I have, or just WD-40. WD-40 is mostly Kerosene or Naptha anyway with some Alkanes and a light mineral oil with a bit of Vaseline. So its mostly a cleaner with a mild lubricant quality. Not much of one but ok for protecting the outside of your chain a bit and does zero damage to O rings as proven by actual tests on o rings over extended periods in solution. There you go, cheap chain cleaner with 'some' lubricant qualities. The part wanting a little more help is the rollers as they aren't sealed. I could brush on some gear oil but buried in all the nonsense is some tests of PTFE spray lubes that mostly dry completely. Not GT85 which has only enough PTFE in so they can write it on the can, I mean a dedicated PTFE product, about £3 from some outlets or if you can't wait a fiver for WD-40 PTFE dry lube (recommended for chains). Decent squirt of that along the rollers, let it all dry and I am done.

 

Hoping for a dry running chain that is actually lubricated 'enough' and easy to clean without much effort by a blast of spray and a wipe. 

 

Bring it on, do your worst :baby:

 

 

Edited by Spindizzy
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Wedgepilot

Ok, I'll bite 😉  I agree most of the action takes place inside the sealed O rings, so not much you can do about that.

 

Sprocket on rollers - a bit of lube (any lube) won't hurt, the sprockets do eventually wear out, so there must be some friction there. Little and often is my preference.

 

Avoiding rust taking hold is probably the best thing you can do. A wipe down with the cleaner of your choice followed by some oil will take care of that. 

 

I've got an old fairy liquid bottle with some silicone pipe super glued on the nozzle, I keep engine oil in it and drizzle oil on the chain once a week, only takes a couple of minutes. Kind of like a manual auto-oiler.

 

Works for me, and I got 25k out of the supposedly crap NC chain with that routine. I only changed it because the front sprocket needed changed and it made sense to do the chain at the same time. The workshop actually called me to check that I definitely wanted to change the chain, because there was nothing wrong with it! 

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alhendo1
25 minutes ago, Wedgepilot said:

Ok, I'll bite 😉  I agree most of the action takes place inside the sealed O rings, so not much you can do about that.

 

Sprocket on rollers - a bit of lube (any lube) won't hurt, the sprockets do eventually wear out, so there must be some friction there. Little and often is my preference.

 

Avoiding rust taking hold is probably the best thing you can do. A wipe down with the cleaner of your choice followed by some oil will take care of that. 

 

I've got an old fairy liquid bottle with some silicone pipe super glued on the nozzle, I keep engine oil in it and drizzle oil on the chain once a week, only takes a couple of minutes. Kind of like a manual auto-oiler.

 

Works for me, and I got 25k out of the supposedly crap NC chain with that routine. I only changed it because the front sprocket needed changed and it made sense to do the chain at the same time. The workshop actually called me to check that I definitely wanted to change the chain, because there was nothing wrong with it! 

Pretty much my chain care.....left over fresh gear oil from Mazda diff oil change...old see through juice bottle....old toothbrush....wee bit of oil onto toothbrush...apply to inner side of chain...takes about 4 shots. ....pack everything away....do this every couple of hundred miles....chain always nice and clean.....takes about 5 minutes tops....

Chain is oe CB500x and has done 15100 miles....only needed adjusting twice early on...haven't adjusted it in ages.

It has now developed a couple of tight links but still ok...plenty life in it yet. If I'm keeping the bike I'll swap it out for something better quality and give the 16 tooth sprocket a go more for curiosity sake.

To be fair it does make a bit of a mess forward but I can't be doing with chain cleaning and lubing. If I'm going touring I'll use chain spray and clean with Parasene/paraffin then revert to oil.

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fj_stuart

As one who does 15,000 miles per year, and ride all year round, here's my take.

- I seldom clean a chain

- I avoid proprietary lubes (unless cheap at autojumbles etc)

- I use engine oil (or WD40, silicone spray etc etc) In winter an oil/grease mix.

- Anyone who says that O ring chains don't need lubrication has obviously never ridden in the rain.

- Once water gets past the seals on an O ring chain and a link seizes it's dead. There is no way to free it…..

- ….or maybe not. The above is the subject of a long-term experiment I'm running. A chain with little wear but some seized links is in my garage steeping in a oil/white spirit mixture. I'm 18 months into the experiment. No conclusions yet.

- For longest life buy DID

- Alan's point about sprocket wear indicating friction is very relevant. And where there is friction you need lube.

- I have got 25,000 miles out of chains on my FJ1200 & SV650 and half that on my CBF250 because it's used in winter. So power doesn't kill chains - water, salt & grit does.

All of the above is just my opinion and may well be rubbish.

 

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Spindizzy

I used to do the oil regularly thing. Made a lot of mess and still got gritty. Partly why I want to try the dryer route with some lube for bits that need it. I doubt my idea will cope with a British winter but my bike is hibernating then anyway. That's when the scooter comes out more to play.

 

Pretty sure my old super tacky Silkolene chain lube did more damage to my O rings than anything. Really sticky and attracted loads of crud. So maybe my chains not long for this world anyway.

 

Provided it doesn't squeak or turn a carrot shade of rust and remains flexible thats good enough for me. If the sprockets last as long as the chain it just gets changed as a set anyway.

 

 

 

 

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Spindizzy - sounds good, let us know how the ptfe thing goes.

 

I’ll add that using any sort of hard brush is a BAD idea as you’ll end up pushing dirt, grit, particles etc into places where you don’t want it like in between rollers and possibly into your rubber seals (X or O, whatever is your flavour).

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Tex

I use Putoline chain lube, I rate it very highly and it suits my purpose admirably. I probably have enough ‘in stock’ to see me out :D if not I have a 5litre can of EP80/90 left over from my AA days and an old, soft paintbrush.

 

I like WD40 chain cleaner (but I have to pay for that, so don’t get it often) ;) as it’s quick and easy. Paraffin (effective but messy) is my fallback method.

 

Oooh, I get all excited thinking about chain care. Aren’t we lucky that motorcycle manufacturers realise how much we enjoy grubbing about with the filthy things. I mean, they could fit road machines with a modern, clean, silent and convenient drive system, but that would spoil it for us, eh? 
 

There’s a belt drive kit for my Bonnie for around £800. I’m not seriously considering it (I already have the GDP of a small African nation tied up in it ;) ) but I would cheerfully have paid an extra £800 for it when new. 

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Griff

Ok, I've been around a while on bikes. I have used various contraptions and liquids on chains over the years. Of the chain oilers I believe the Tutoro is the best, mostly because it gets plenty of the oil on the chain without also getting it on the back wheel. However by now I have even given up on chain oilers courtesy of a chap with the handle VTom on the International Strom forum.  Oh yes, and I never clean chains.

 

Anyway I was reading posts on the Strom forum one day and I wandered on to a thread on chain oiling. As usual folks had many and varied opinions, even to never oiling the chain at all !!  Then I came to VTom's post. I generally read all of his posts because they almost always make sense in some form or other, just like a couple of my favourites on here. Tom records everything so he can quote relevant information to back up any little bits of wisdom that he imparts. 

 

I came to the point where Tom quoted some remarkable mileages for his chains and sprockets. He had chain mileages recorded from the early days of his (huge mileage) Strom and they were pretty average. However the last two chains lasted for some ridiculous mileages. I won't quote them right now until I look them up again, but the mileage was almost double that on his first couple of chains.  His secret is Wurth HHS2000. He sprays it on the chain every tank fill or a little more if raining. He never cleans the chain. It was recommended to him by a Suzuki mechanic and he decided to try it. 

 

I recall hearing my own mechanic waffling eloquent about Wurth products previously. There is a Wurth Shop not too far from my home so I went and got some. I applied the same criteria as VTom. Nothing to lose. My X-Adv has now passed 30,000kms and the chain has virtually stopped stretching. Sadly there was a fair bit of mileage on the chain already when I started using this stuff so the front sprocket was somewhat worn. However it is holding its own currently. On my former NC700X I had replaced the chain by 18,000kms.    My CRF250L has now gone over the 20,000km mark and again the chain is faring well. The chain on that little bike gets a hard time offroad and in crappy conditions generally.  I think I have only ever once adjusted the chain on the Strom in 20,000kms. The OEM chain on the Strom is a robust item so I expect huge mileage from it. 

 

What is special about HHS2000 ?  Firstly it sprays as a very fine watery liquid. Within 2/3 minutes it then solidifies into a tacky grease. That gives the liquid plenty of time to permeate under the rollers where it stays. Sure I have seen other chain lubes (ad nauseum) quoting similar properties. I have tried many of them and found them to be unremarkable, until now. 

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Spindizzy
1 hour ago, Griff said:

What is special about HHS2000 ?  Firstly it sprays as a very fine watery liquid. Within 2/3 minutes it then solidifies into a tacky grease. That gives the liquid plenty of time to permeate under the rollers where it stays. Sure I have seen other chain lubes (ad nauseum) quoting similar properties. I have tried many of them and found them to be unremarkable, until now. 

 

Always good to get  different view. That HHS2000 is exactly the same properties as what I used initially 'Silkolene Pro Lube'. Goes on like alcohol but dries to a super sticky substance almost like tack glue. Just by association I thought that's what damaged my X rings by tearing them. I have lots of little o ring curls coming away which are the little flange parts of the X ring. I should also be prepared to accept its just a crap OEM chain with dodgy seals. I still didn't like that it attracted muck and grit like a magnet.

 

Would say though that for rollers its probably the best thing to use, that stuff stays put. But not sure I want to go there again though. Cant argue with your real world testing, albeit chains don't stretch, they elongate due to pin wear. Not sure how that HHS2000 is able to influence what goes on behind the O rings? Whatever, it works for you. Environment and how you ride probably make the biggest difference. Dry and dusty, wet and salty. Binary throttle or driving miss daisy.

 

So I did my clean with WD, easy to do and a wipe over. Went for a cuppa to let it dry a bit then sprayed on the PTFE. That stuff is so slippery, lets see if it stays put. My chain I know isn't long for this world as the O rings aren't great, I see a bit of internal lube coming out here and there. Only 2.5 K, probably could have claimed some warranty but local dealer is gone and CBA. Will just put a new one on when needed.

 

There was an interesting youtube vid of a fella that said add up the cost of all your cans of chain cleaner and lube then see what the difference is in buying new chains and sprockets a little more often...sort of had a point. He suggested give it the odd spray now and again and accept the loss of a few K.

 

Finished article below.

 

Mostly just testing what my maintenance regime will be for the new one.

 

 

 

Chain.jpg

Edited by Spindizzy
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Griff
1 hour ago, Spindizzy said:

 

albeit chains don't stretch, they elongate due to pin wear. Not sure how that HHS2000 is able to influence what goes on behind the O rings? 

 

 

Fully aware that they don't "stretch" as such, however that is a figure of speech I have always heard being used to cover the process of pin wear. Surprised that You weren't aware. Tbh I am not aware of anything that can influence what goes on behind the O rings. Imho if something does actually influence that aspect then the O rings are knackered. 

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Andy m

I'm afraid I take a cost based approach. 

 

I can at most do 10000 miles a year, more typically 6000. I never keep a bike more than three years, more often two. I will get through one or two chains per bike regardless of using sticky spray at £10 a can or old engine oil which is free. Hundred quid chain oilers aren't working by the time I've saved their cost because mostly I just hand the less worn chain to the next bloke . No salesman ever looked at the chain and noted it was two thirds of the way through its life. 

 

Andy

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Spindizzy
1 hour ago, Andy m said:

I'm afraid I take a cost based approach. 

 

I can at most do 10000 miles a year, more typically 6000. I never keep a bike more than three years, more often two. I will get through one or two chains per bike regardless of using sticky spray at £10 a can or old engine oil which is free. Hundred quid chain oilers aren't working by the time I've saved their cost because mostly I just hand the less worn chain to the next bloke . No salesman ever looked at the chain and noted it was two thirds of the way through its life. 

 

Andy

So what do you actually do, if at all to your chains?

 

 

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Mr Toad
30 minutes ago, Spindizzy said:

So what do you actually do, if at all to your chains?

 

 

 

I'm another who largely ignores the chain when I have one. I also tend to be in the higher mileage rider bracket. 

 

I'm also not going to buy any specialist chain lubes. I don't even use new or clean oil, I use old engine oil. My Bonneville is currently wearing a light coating of oil that's been through the Jeep. I apply sparingly with a small brush once a decade or so then leave it for a while before removing the excess with a rag. 

 

I did have a Tutoro oiler on the NC because it came with it and it worked well but was a bit of a faff to set the flow rate, dependent on temperature and viscosity etc.. If I'm being honest it spent a lot of its time empty while I had the NC.

 

I've never had a chain snap and have only ever replaced them if needed with chains that are as cheap as I dare go. Also the only chains I've ever replaced were on bikes I'd bought to fix up where the chains were seized solid with neglect and weather. 

 

I know people who've had all manner of chain issues but most of them rode like maniacs and wore them and the sprockets out or occasionally snapped them whereas I tend to be a bit more steady. 

 

Personally I think some motorcyclists and chain lube are like some ladies with their face creams and lotions. Terrified not to do it in case it really does work and convinced that the more they pay the better it is.

 

As we all know the world is full of 70+ year old women with flawless wrinkle free skin.

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Andy m
1 hour ago, Spindizzy said:

So what do you actually do, if at all to your chains?

 

 

As little as possible 😁

 

After each ride, unless I'm in a rush, open the garage door and grab an oil can filled with whatever waste oil I had when it was last empty, usually used engine oil. Run a line of oil down each set of plates on the lower run where its exposed and accessible. Walk the bike into the garage, thus turning the chain. Park it up. Use a rag to wipe off excess/ smear it onto the outside. It's weirdly what the Honda manual says. 

 

It gets cleaned with a brush when the bike gets a soap wash, then more thoroughly lubed, call that three times a year. The chain will get a good blast of ACF-50 on such occasions. 

 

I run chains slacker than many. 40mm by the sticker that tells you its 40mm. 

 

What seems to play out with many is (because I've done this myself in the past) :

 

1. Cleaning agents either manage to wash grease out or attack the O-rings.

2. Sticky stuff makes grinding paste. Up the desert the old hands use water after a ride to remove the dust, not even an oily rag. 

3. If you set 10mm slack now and accidentally create a tight spot, it'll be 40mm in a week. Like your mother said, keep playing with it and it will fall off. 

 

Andy

 

 

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bazza
22 hours ago, Spindizzy said:

Due to extreme levels of boredom and cabin fever I resorted to delving back in to the murky world of chain maintenance. Most of it is supposition, superstition, claimed 'facts' without evidence, religious lube fanatics and the downright weird. Having enjoyed Youtube videos and websites of all types both amateur and professional a few interesting nuggets come out of it. It breaks down to.

1. Don't bother, doesn't need cleaning/lubing

2. Smother it in tacky gloop

3. Smother it in non tacky gloop

4. Use gear oil (often recommended by chain manufacturers and bike brands)

5. Use a Scottoiler or similar of your choice

6. Use one of umpteen snake oils

 

Cleaning is pretty much a mix of Kerosene, expensive dedicated chain cleaner, WD-40.

 

So what I determined after this barrage of infobesity is that tacky is bad, avoid tacky. Tacky makes grinding paste. Use an oiler if thats your thing. Wax lubes work ok until it rains.

 

Then there is the technical approach where you think about what lube actually does. Mostly on the outside its just corrosion resistance, also a bit of help for the rollers. The main action takes place inside the O ring boundary so don't try and affect that.  Some say any lube is a waste of time as the pressure of the rollers squeeze  it out anyway and thats not the main wear area.

What I am going to try, and feel free to wade in and call me a heretic is to clean it with either some of the Kerosene I have, or just WD-40. WD-40 is mostly Kerosene or Naptha anyway with some Alkanes and a light mineral oil with a bit of Vaseline. So its mostly a cleaner with a mild lubricant quality. Not much of one but ok for protecting the outside of your chain a bit and does zero damage to O rings as proven by actual tests on o rings over extended periods in solution. There you go, cheap chain cleaner with 'some' lubricant qualities. The part wanting a little more help is the rollers as they aren't sealed. I could brush on some gear oil but buried in all the nonsense is some tests of PTFE spray lubes that mostly dry completely. Not GT85 which has only enough PTFE in so they can write it on the can, I mean a dedicated PTFE product, about £3 from some outlets or if you can't wait a fiver for WD-40 PTFE dry lube (recommended for chains). Decent squirt of that along the rollers, let it all dry and I am done.

 

Hoping for a dry running chain that is actually lubricated 'enough' and easy to clean without much effort by a blast of spray and a wipe. 

 

Bring it on, do your worst :baby:

 

 

I think i will get a belt conversion- when I can and if it looks like spares will continue to be available. But it must be fully enclosed so no stones or road debris could get in to wreck it!

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Spindizzy

I did a little experiment with WD-40. Sprayed some in a tin and left it to evaporate. Basically what gets left behind is a thin machine oil much like Aeroshell 3 we use as a general lube on planes.Not much good for the rollers I imagine,  but should be fine for the side plates and O rings.

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Spindizzy

I was wondering how much of all the chain manufacturer spiel is just marketing. When you compare the specifications of chains between manufacturers, often the tensile strength difference is so slight its of no significance. E.G with JT two chains have a difference of maybe 3% in strength but the rest of the design is identical. Also the specs of strength between manufacturers is really close.

 

What I found funny was that they said a 520 chain with a tensile strength of 38.2KN is for an ATV up to 200cc but one with 39.7 KN is for road bikes up to 110bhp?? Same chain pretty much just a little heavier.

 

Cant help but think a lot of chains aren't really bespoke, they just churn off a machine where some goes maybe to agriculture and some is put in a posh box with a flashy name. Ok accepted some crap chinese stuff out there but seriously, the differences of the ranges are so small with the key difference being O ring, X ring or the new bluey whiteness of a Z ring. A  Z ring is an asymmetric X ring by the way.

 

I am sure DID etc make good chains, but the specs and 'usage charts' really push the poetic license a bit. Certainly on the NC its meager HP output wont need the bluey whiteness super high performance GTXRS 2000 Nimbus Turbo Sport chain.

 

I imagine DID etc probably put a better spec grease in and maybe a more tolerant O ring material over cheaper stuff. But really there is a lot of PR going on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Steve Case

I have never made my chain sticky as this could lead to being arrested for committing an indecent act in a public place!

 

I would think the biggest problem with sticky chain lubes is too much being applied or the excess not being wiped off. I just wash the crap off the bike and chain with water from a pressure barrel when I get home and check and lube at the weekends.

 

At the moment I use Scottoiler oil that was left over from the Scottoiler fitted to the Transalp I had, and after reading all of this I may soak a cloth in the oil and put it in a plastic bag in the topbox for a sneaky lube when I get the urge.

 

This way when anyone asks how I lube my chain I can tell them - with an oily rag.

:angel:

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