Petrol ?

[Tel 4,712]

I realise there are many knowledgeable technical people on this forum so thought I'd ask: is there any difference in petrol from different suppliers?

Many years ago, in the 90s, somebody I have great respect for [ a race engineer and tuner ] said I should always put Shell in my bike if possible and avoid certain others. To this day I always aim for Shell or BP and avoid Esso and others if I can, and always avoid supermarket petrol stations.

Is there any evidence that some petrol is better than others these days? Ethanol content, etc.?

Thanks for any advice!

[ted 5,734]

Many of them get it from the same refinery. The big problem is usually down to contaminated tanks at the petrol station itself.

[Andy m 23,522]

Buy the cheapest. 

 

Your local supermarket has a tanker arrive every few days. It never sits in the tanks with rain pouring down the breather. The pump has its seals changed before they wear out to avoid a riot. 

 

That £1.70 a litre farm yard halfway between Glen Nowhere and Loch Kalamity only sells to the desperate and last had a delivery when Henry Ford was a lad. The pump and pipes are as filthy as the glass topped dispensers. 

 

The UK has fewer oil terminals than distributors, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_terminals_in_the_United_Kingdom so the brand is largely meaningless. 

 

The EU set the spec. HMRC are very keen to make sure the tax is levied correctly and producers make next to nothing, so won't give any extra. The result is that what's delivered is pretty stable. Modern fuels do not like to be stored, hence you want a distributor who shifts it. 

 

Andy

 

 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Andy m

[Spindizzy 7,109]

13 minutes ago, Andy m said:

Buy the cheapest. 

 

Your local supermarket has a tanker arrive every few days. It never sits in the tanks with rain pouring down the breather. The pump has its seals changed before they wear out to avoid a riot. 

 

That £1.70 a litre farm yard halfway between Glen Nowhere and Loch Kalamity only sells to the desperate and last had a delivery when Henry Ford was a lad. The pump and pipes are as filthy as the glass topped dispensers. 

 

The UK has fewer oil terminals than distributors, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_terminals_in_the_United_Kingdom so the brand is largely meaningless. 

 

The EU set the spec. HMRC are very keen to make sure the tax is levied correctly and producers make next to nothing, so won't give any extra. The result is that what's delivered is pretty stable. Modern fuels do not like to be stored, hence you want a distributor who shifts it. 

 

Andy

 

 

 

If this develops in to a snake oil fuel additive discussion I am out 

 

Wot he said. Buy it cheap from those that shift most of it. Fuel unlike wine doesn't develop subtle tones of performance with age.

 

Most garages only have the 'super dooper high performance life enhancing unicorn power boost' fuel on a couple of pumps for those that fall victim to the advertising nonsense. Its probably been sitting around a while. 

[Andy m 23,522]

But, but, but, my wife's sister knew a bloke who had a mate who only ever bought SDHPLEUPB and he not only got an extra 0.84 mpg, but he never had to replace the fuel pump in the three years he had the bike. The bloke at the petrol station told him about it 😁😁😁

 

Andy

[Tel 4,712]

1 hour ago, Andy m said:

Buy the cheapest. 

 

Your local supermarket has a tanker arrive every few days. It never sits in the tanks with rain pouring down the breather. The pump has its seals changed before they wear out to avoid a riot. 

 

That £1.70 a litre farm yard halfway between Glen Nowhere and Loch Kalamity only sells to the desperate and last had a delivery when Henry Ford was a lad. The pump and pipes are as filthy as the glass topped dispensers. 

 

The UK has fewer oil terminals than distributors, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_terminals_in_the_United_Kingdom so the brand is largely meaningless. 

 

The EU set the spec. HMRC are very keen to make sure the tax is levied correctly and producers make next to nothing, so won't give any extra. The result is that what's delivered is pretty stable. Modern fuels do not like to be stored, hence you want a distributor who shifts it. 

 

Andy

 

 

Thanks! I don't live or buy in remote areas so all local sites shift plenty so the supermarket analogy doesn't apply locally but I take your point.

One thing I would mention though, how comes my wife insists on buying cheaper diesel at Sainsburys petrol station and the smell is noticeably different [worse] on start-up than if she buys BP or Shell? 

 

Like most things personal preference counts for a lot so I'll still always favour Shell over any others; who said you have to be sensible all the time...

[Tex 36,817]

By and large I agree with Andy (although every time I went on a technical training course the AA recommended Shell or BP  ). I fill up, almost exclusively, at my local Morrisons or Asda. Two reasons, firstly they’re the cheapest and secondly (and equally importantly) they’re pay at the pump and I don’t get the “Will pump number 7 please take his helmet off” bollox.

 

To sum it up in one sentence - I use the cheapest supermarket slop available and it runs like a champ. 

[bahnstormer 905]

The cars always get Shell V-Power or BP Ultimate, but that's only because they're imports and tend to detonate and run like crap if I use "standard" petrol. 

 

The bike gets what it's given and likes it .

[Hickky 3,131]

In Uganda there must be 30 different brands of petrol, but we always fill up in a Shell garage. The word on the (unmade) street is that many of the unknown brands put about 5% water in their fuel then make the pump deliver a bit short, that's why the sub brands are cheaper. 

Uganda has no oil of her own at the moment (but it has been found in a decent quantity recently) as there is no refinery, so all petrol comes via Mombasa in Kenya by tanker truck taking two days to get there from the coast. Shell sells standard and V+ or whatever it's called. This must be down to what phial of additive they put in once the petrol delivery driver dumps the basic stuff off, there are no Shell delivery tankers that I have seen.

Maybe I am sentimental but I always take Honest John's advice and run every tenth fill up with the posh stuff, as he recons the additives help keep varnishing at bay and help keep injectors cleaner. Always seems to be a tiny bit more power too, but one in ten is not a huge cost. Still a rip off though! 

[Slowboy 20,444]

7 hours ago, Tex said:

To sum it up in one sentence - I use the cheapest supermarket slop available and it runs like a champ. 

+1, never had a bike or car that didn’t run just fine on that criteria.

[MikeBike 5,005]

9 hours ago, ted said:

Many of them get it from the same refinery. The big problem is usually down to contaminated tanks at the petrol station itself.

I understand that the base product from the refinery is the same for all but then additives are specific to each supplier so not all the same.

 

A local motorcycle dealer (not my usual) told me to avoid Tesco as they get problems with the additives and others have reinforced that view. I generally use ASDA.

I did a test for a while using the Shell premium to see if it made any noticable difference to performance or mpg. It didnt so went back to cheapest (excl tesco)

[Gringo 5,079]

In the many years I've been motorcycling I would think I've used all brands of petrol [remember 2 star?..cheap(ish) and cheerful and did the job). Only had a fuel problem once and that was at a Shell garage. For the amount I actually put in the price isn't really an issue for me to be honest. If I need fuel I'll buy it no matter who is supplying. When the cheap Supermarket petrol started to enter the market I did wonder if it was inferior to 'real' petrol stations but, on the rare occasions I do use them, I've never had any performance issues.  

[ted 5,734]

1 hour ago, MikeBike said:

A local motorcycle dealer (not my usual) told me to avoid Tesco as they get problems with the additives and others have reinforced that view. I generally use ASDA.

I did a test for a while using the Shell premium to see if it made any noticable difference to performance or mpg. It didnt so went back to cheapest (excl tesco)

 

That's probably because he remembers this.

[Rocker66 34,437]

2 hours ago, MikeBike said:

I understand that the base product from the refinery is the same for all but then additives are specific to each supplier so not all the same.

 

A local motorcycle dealer (not my usual) told me to avoid Tesco as they get problems with the additives and others have reinforced that view. I generally use ASDA.

I did a test for a while using the Shell premium to see if it made any noticable difference to performance or mpg. It didnt so went back to cheapest (excl tesco)

We have been filling up from the two local Tescos for years with absolutely no problems. Like Tex I use pay at the pump whenever possible especially since the pandemic started.

[Andy m 23,522]

Tesco is contracted to Greenergy/Exxon, so basically Esso. 

 

The other supermarkets buy through brokers (and hence run/contract their own tanker fleets to go collect) so you might get Shell one month, BP the next. As these are all basic EN 228 (IIRC) spec fuels without any additional additives they are the same. 

 

The premium fuels, Shell V-Power etc. do have a few extra drops of washing up liquid, fairy dust, unicorn pee etc. so a supermarket will never buy those to mix in. No one who doesn't work for the oil companies seems to be able to show a cost benefit for using these. Barely measurable stuff like "smoother acceleration" and "cleaner running" would need 100000 mile engine strip downs. The oil companies can afford to but choose not to, I wonder why? The consumer can't afford to. No fleet, company or hire has ever tried to go beyond recommendation (Shell will make deals with Enterprise and the like to get a brochure in every hire to try and convince the ones already terrified of losing their deposit). If V-power made Repmobiles last longer, believe me Arval would insist you used it. 

 

Andy

[MikeBike 5,005]

1 hour ago, Andy m said:

Tesco is contracted to Greenergy/Exxon, so basically Esso. 

 

The other supermarkets buy through brokers (and hence run/contract their own tanker fleets to go collect) so you might get Shell one month, BP the next. As these are all basic EN 228 (IIRC) spec fuels without any additional additives they are the same. 

 

The premium fuels, Shell V-Power etc. do have a few extra drops of washing up liquid, fairy dust, unicorn pee etc. so a supermarket will never buy those to mix in. No one who doesn't work for the oil companies seems to be able to show a cost benefit for using these. Barely measurable stuff like "smoother acceleration" and "cleaner running" would need 100000 mile engine strip downs. The oil companies can afford to but choose not to, I wonder why? The consumer can't afford to. No fleet, company or hire has ever tried to go beyond recommendation (Shell will make deals with Enterprise and the like to get a brochure in every hire to try and convince the ones already terrified of losing their deposit). If V-power made Repmobiles last longer, believe me Arval would insist you used it. 

 

Andy

So if the basic unleaded at supermarkets do not have any additives at all per brand/buyer and is just the raw product from the refinery, then I don't understand the (Suzuki/Kawasaki) dealer's assertions (about 2 years ago) about Tesco fuel.

 

and I can go back to using Tesco..

Edited October 11, 2020 by MikeBike

[Tex 36,817]

8 minutes ago, MikeBike said:

So if the basic unleaded at supermarkets do not have any additives at all per brand/buyer and is just the raw product from the refinery, then I don't understand the (Suzuki/Kawasaki) dealer's assertions (about 2 years ago) about Tesco fuel.

 

and I can go back to using Tesco..

Mike, there isn’t a Tesco near me (well, there is, but it’s further away than Morrisons and less convenient than Asda) but I would use one without hesitation. Actually, just remembered, I did fill up at a Tesco on my way home from Essex a couple of months back. The experience was entirely unremarkable..  

[Andy m 23,522]

They all have additives, just to the basic EN standard they are all the same unless you think ethanol from barley is different to what you get from beetroot leaves . If you can add unobtainium sparkle dust and still meet the spec no one cares except the colouring in department at corporate HQ. 

 

Tesco made a meal of a contamination problem in 2007 .https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United_Kingdom_petrol_contamination 13 years without a problem that ASDA, Morrisons, Harvest Energy and Total simply handled better. 

 

Personally I avoid Esso as the only two issues I've ever had was with them, but honestly, it's in your head and makes as much sense as comparing brands of mineral water for their ability to stop your pee turning yellow. 

 

Andy

Edited October 11, 2020 by Andy m

[Andy m 23,522]

A question. 

 

Do those who get the warm feeling from buying unleaded with an advertising premium have a general sensitivity to brands or specific areas? 

 

You will for example find people who'll only eat Kellogs cereal but buy unbranded Chinese tyres. The cereal eaters are more likely to also want Heinz soup with fewer insisting on Nike trainers and Michelin tyres until you arrive at a smaller group who will only buy branded anything (via their iPad). 

 

It's everywhere. If you want 10000 trailer brake chambers I can get you ones with a better name and an extra years warranty if you pay more. Packaging asside they are essentially the same but as a safety related product the branded are more popular. The only trick is to stop the budget brand getting too established. Fiat goes on, Lancia, Ram and Chrysler come and go depending on if today is about smoke or mirrors. 

 

Andy

[nabrU 2,294]

I'm with Andy, Sean and Tex on this one.

I have Tesco Extra fairly close to my place and I refuel both car (diesel) and my Affy Twin there as much as possible. It is cheap, convenient (shopping, jet wash, pay at pump) and never had any problems with both car and AT.

 

According to the Fuelly, out of my 66 refuels (over three years ownership of AT) 24 were done at Tesco pumps.

 

[Dave H 2,022]

My nephew worked in a refinery in Wales.  When premium fuel was loaded a small pitot tube injected some additive into the fuel as it was being pumped into the tanker.  Tube was often blocked, additive ran out, chap forgot to press the right button ... I think you get the picture.

[ChrisCB 6,672]

In my forty odd years in the motor trade running problems due to poor fuel quality was actually few and far between, apart from contaminated tanks at stations,  (once had an A8 filled with 80litres of water) the 2007 problem at Tesco didn't affect VW/Audi but Ford's and Vauxhalls were dropping like flies! The biggest problems were with diesel, we had an on going one with Morrisons whose diesel has a high biodiesel mix even in the normal diesel, when used regularly it left a horrible smelly residue at the bottom of the cars fuel tank like a fungus. 

[Mister Paul 838]

22 hours ago, Tex said:

By and large I agree with Andy (although every time I went on a technical training course the AA recommended Shell or BP  ). I fill up, almost exclusively, at my local Morrisons or Asda. Two reasons, firstly they’re the cheapest and secondly (and equally importantly) they’re pay at the pump and I don’t get the “Will pump number 7 please take his helmet off” bollox.

 

To sum it up in one sentence - I use the cheapest supermarket slop available and it runs like a champ. 

 

I'm of the view that the AA/RAC and other motoring groups make stuff up to try to convince people that simple stuff is actually rather complicated and knowing the complicated stuff makes them better drivers than you. 

[Andy m 23,522]

You aren't allowed to make stuff up. Going into jargon laced detail to convince the audience they need your expertise is just marketing and is how things work wherever humans are involved since Ug convinced Og that if he shared his brontosaurus he'd stop the volcano getting angry by getting off of his face on mushrooms. 

 

Andy

Edited October 11, 2020 by Andy m

[Jamesc 3,655]

@Hickky you made this post international, so...in Qatar there is only one supplier, easy 😆. We have a choice of 91 or 95 octane, the latter they call 'super'. Probably my Pajero & NC would be fine on either, I do tend to go for 95 RON....I always wonder where the local chaps with their Lambos /Ferraris/ exotica get their fuel from, or do they just stick 95 in there cos it's called 'super'

Edited October 11, 2020 by Jamesco