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Grumpy old man

Makes my blood boil!

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Grumpy old man

Hi

From another forum. Crf250l with 2500 miles still under 2 year warranty full Honda service record. It developed tapping noise from cylinder head area, Honda removed rocker cover to find an inlet valve shim was missing  hence the tapping noise,  but according to Honda workshop and Honda uk this isn't covered under warranty,  WHAT!, . Now I'm just quoting what the owner has told the forum. So if all above is fact, what do you think of Honda Warranty and why/what would cause a shim to jump. Oh! They can't find the shim!

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Gringo

I can't see why it's not a warranty issue. Shim must have been omitted at point of manufacture or dealer service. Did Honda explain why it was excluded? 

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Tonyj

Normally I’d shrug my shoulders but if it has been made like this then I would press this further.

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Grumpy old man
25 minutes ago, Gringo said:

I can't see why it's not a warranty issue. Shim must have been omitted at point of manufacture or dealer service. Did Honda explain why it was excluded? 

I'm following the thread I'll let you know if any developments.

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MatBin

I would have thought the warranty stated something like "manufacturing defect" which clearly this is, unless they are suggesting the owner removed it? Small claims court beckons I think.

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Grumpy old man
19 minutes ago, MatBin said:

I would have thought the warranty stated something like "manufacturing defect" which clearly this is, unless they are suggesting the owner removed it? Small claims court beckons I think.

Exactly what I I recommended and my thoughts. 

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Andy m

A warranty issue is what a large corporation says is a warranty issue until a court disagrees. Why would they pay out this vast amount of labour to someone who cannot match them in lawyers and will probably never buy another Honda again? Ooh but it isn't fair squeal the peanut gallery. The warm thanks for a job well done will not save the UK warranty manager who has a target to hit on not paying out. The bloke refusing the warranty will not even have to deal with the customer (the system is designed that way to make it easy to say no). 

 

My advice would be to get a solicitor and hit the dealer with consumer legislation . The bike was bought from them so how they deal with Honda is their problem. A dealer will only have the same level of legal support as the customer. Make reasonable yet impossible requests such as asking them to return the bike in its original state so it can be examined by an independent expert and obviously state that a missing internal part could hardly seem to be anything except a defect in a goods they supplied . Threaten to seek damages for loss of use of the vehicle (you obviously use it for work) but also ask them for solutions.  Hit hard, hit fast, accept the goodwill solution and gagging clause. 

 

I know this is disappointing, but it is a fact of life. 

 

It is also why Enfield and the Chinese will grow faster. You pay peanuts and get monkeys its annoying. You pay Japanese or Bavarian rates (the sausage eaters invented the modern approach to post sales customer relations) and still get monkeys and you are rightly angry. How many of us refuse to buy a BMW vs how many pay for a extra portion of non-cover? The people who came up with this approach achieved their aim, no one walks out of a showroom because they don't believe the warranty really exists. 

 

Andy

 

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skorpion

As Andy says the claim is with the supplying dealer not Honda.

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Rocker66

As in all these sort of cases it would help to hear both sides of the story. If it is as the owner tells it I would certainly say it was a warranty claim however the dealer may have a reason o decline the claim that we are not aware of.

Personally I can only say that Sue and I have never had any problems with Honda Warranty or any other make other than Yamaha including Sue having the frame on her Hornet replaced FOC when we’ll out of the warranty period.

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lipsee

I too have never had a problem with warrantys,,  at least nothing springs to mind...   suppose it can be better buying a second hand bike ,,and not expecting any help getting it fixed...

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Tonyj

Regrettably I have had the bmw treatment but on the car front . Water damaged the electrical roof stuff and they said it was a fail on a trim item and that wasn’t covered ergo the electrical stuff was inconsequential , I proper hooted and it was like trying to solve the issues in the middle east , real nasty hard work but Honda Kent have been nothing if not exemplary in any dealings I have had , hence the reluctance to buy anything other. 
my Ktm man is good but Ktm are proper wankers and have the bmw philosophy, as in just to them to **** off and see what happens 

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Andywills77

I brought a second hand car that came with a 3 month warranty. It developed an electrical fault after 7 weeks and the stealer claimed the warranty was mechanical only.

 

After a phone call to trading standards and writing a letter pointing out that it could easily be argued that the car was not of a satisfactory quality under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) and as a result, the stealer would be in breach of contract...the car got fixed

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Andy m

SOGA1979 is now Consumer Rights Act 2015

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/contents/enacted

 

As Westminster guff goes its actually quite readable. Mention it, or specifically sections 9 (3) and 10, in complaint letters and the laxative effects can ease things to a solution. Don't be too long winded or specific, a solicitor won't thank you later, just say you think the law will be on your side:

 

... I believe a missing shim component might count as a durability problem under section 9 (3)(e) of the CRA 2015 and will seek further advice on this if..... 

 

Andy

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larryblag
Posted (edited)

I agree with Rocker there could be more too it - we'll have to wait and see. I can't see why Honda would take this stance if not? That said, our local scooter dealer parted company with Vespa/Piaggio due to them having to foot the bill when they were left home and dry by them. Issues that should so obviously be covered were rejected out of hand so the dealer put them right instead. The two problems with that strategy were not only  the financial losses incurred but probably as bad, the loss of confidence for the customer. It's a small family firm and had a good reputation. They didn't want it tarnished so easil by such poor support so they let them go. Ironically, as RE and Chinese bike dealers they've said they get much better support now. 

Edited by larryblag
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Chris750

The guy mentions in a reply that Honda have told him to go to trading standards, definitely more to it if its true! The OP's profile looks a bit suspect to me, take anything in Facebook with a pinch of salt.

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Andy m
Posted (edited)

New entries into a market need better service. Your Enfield breaks down, they fix it, loan you a different one, free coffee, you tell all your mates about the day out, some think maybe Enfield have moved on from 1990's Bullets. Honda reject your warranty, you tell all your mates, half will refuse to believe it isn't your fault because that would mean their own Honda might not be infallible and go buy another regardless. 

 

What Honda will defend to the highest court is the service network. If this bike had a valve service at a non-Honda dealer or was past the service interval they basically have you. Its either been abused or the service was incompetent. They will defend this because of the profit it generates. If doesn't take that many dealer services to pay for one warranty claim so its a balance. If they let one through, every incompetent who strips the drain plug will be claiming . The like of Triumph of course get greedy and reject a claim of the paint falling off because the oil wasn't changed by a dealer, but it still only puts off a tiny proportion of buyers. 

 

Andy 

Edited by Andy m
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Tel

Find a dealer you can trust and build a relationship with, regardless of manufacturer, and they will look after you [in my experience over many years and bikes]. The dealers have more 'clout' with the manufacturer than we do as an individual.

This even applies to small/independent dealerships/sellers in my experience, they will always try to resolve any issues even if the manufacturer doesn't play ball. Not ideal but an acceptable compromise in most cases. 

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larryblag
10 hours ago, Andy m said:

New entries into a market need better service. Your Enfield breaks down, they fix it, loan you a different one, free coffee, you tell all your mates about the day out, some think maybe Enfield have moved on from 1990's Bullets. Honda reject your warranty, you tell all your mates, half will refuse to believe it isn't your fault because that would mean their own Honda might not be infallible and go buy another regardless. 

 

What Honda will defend to the highest court is the service network. If this bike had a valve service at a non-Honda dealer or was past the service interval they basically have you. Its either been abused or the service was incompetent. They will defend this because of the profit it generates. If doesn't take that many dealer services to pay for one warranty claim so its a balance. If they let one through, every incompetent who strips the drain plug will be claiming . The like of Triumph of course get greedy and reject a claim of the paint falling off because the oil wasn't changed by a dealer, but it still only puts off a tiny proportion of buyers. 

 

Andy 

When I worked for VW/Audi, a customer's Passat was brought to us. One of his outer CV joints had failed and thrown a driveshaft propelling his car into a hedge. He was lucky not to have been injured. He was furious and insisted on a goodwill gesture towards the cost of repair at the very least. The car was about 5 years old and we'd not seen it in our workshop (or any VW) for the last three years. Last stamp in the book confirmed this. His argument was that it should not have failed so unexpectedly, catastrophically and dangerously.

I can't remember the mileage but I

do remember inspecting the failed drive shaft which showed evidence that the outer CV boot had torn a considerable time before and unsurprisingly not been detected. The failed bearings were completely dry and corroded. 

VW did contribute to the cost of parts by way of an offer made "without prejudice". Very good under the circumstances. 

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Defender
On 06/01/2021 at 09:43, Andy m said:

A warranty issue is what a large corporation says is a warranty issue until a court disagrees. Why would they pay out this vast amount of labour to someone who cannot match them in lawyers and will probably never buy another Honda again? Ooh but it isn't fair squeal the peanut gallery. The warm thanks for a job well done will not save the UK warranty manager who has a target to hit on not paying out. The bloke refusing the warranty will not even have to deal with the customer (the system is designed that way to make it easy to say no). 

 

My advice would be to get a solicitor and hit the dealer with consumer legislation . The bike was bought from them so how they deal with Honda is their problem. A dealer will only have the same level of legal support as the customer. Make reasonable yet impossible requests such as asking them to return the bike in its original state so it can be examined by an independent expert and obviously state that a missing internal part could hardly seem to be anything except a defect in a goods they supplied . Threaten to seek damages for loss of use of the vehicle (you obviously use it for work) but also ask them for solutions.  Hit hard, hit fast, accept the goodwill solution and gagging clause. 

I know this is disappointing, but it is a fact of life. 

It is also why Enfield and the Chinese will grow faster. You pay peanuts and get monkeys its annoying. You pay Japanese or Bavarian rates (the sausage eaters invented the modern approach to post sales customer relations) and still get monkeys and you are rightly angry. How many of us refuse to buy a BMW vs how many pay for a extra portion of non-cover? The people who came up with this approach achieved their aim, no one walks out of a showroom because they don't believe the warranty really exists. 

 

Andy

Andy, I'm sorry, but I'm a little bit confused by your last paragraph, you seem to be condemning both sides of the coin, both the well established manufacturers and the more recent ones, unless I've misunderstood what you've written?

 

  

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Steve1962

So,

Let me get this right.......bloke buys a bike and then it develops a fault......and it's discovered that one of the components was not even installed..?

 

How can any manufacturer get away with that - it's not fit for purpose if at some point it breaks down as a clear result of the part not being fitted.

 

 

 

Steve

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fj_stuart

Lets think about this one. The bike certainly wasn’t built with a missing shim. If it was it would be rattling like hell from day one and you wouldn’t have to ride it 2,500 miles to realise something was wrong. So did the engine spit a shim out? This is impossible in engines with the usual “shim under bucket” arrangement but, from what I can see, the CRF has shims under rockers. Could you over-rev an engine to the point where valve float created enough space for the shim to get out? I doubt it.

 

So what remains? Maybe the dealer suspects some inexpert owner maintenance.

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elbee

What if the shim split in two? 2.5k is a bit soon to start mucking about inside.

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Grumpy old man
Posted (edited)

As mentioned before there's always two sides to the story, I'd like to hear more. Oh! Could the shim have been dropped into the engine while exploring the rattle? Ooh, the plot thickens.

Ps- we have heard of an NC being assembled from factory without a head gasket.

Edited by Grumpy old man
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PoppetM
On 06/01/2021 at 13:38, Andywills77 said:

I brought a second hand car that came with a 3 month warranty. It developed an electrical fault after 7 weeks and the stealer claimed the warranty was mechanical only.

 

After a phone call to trading standards and writing a letter pointing out that it could easily be argued that the car was not of a satisfactory quality under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) and as a result, the stealer would be in breach of contract...the car got fixed

Similar.4 days into ownership of convertible I had a roof issue. They “sorted it” a week later, same fault, so I took it to my local dealer. They asked me to step into their workshop, pointed to same car, same dealer badge in the window and guess what same problem...

They had been playing with roof alignment instead of replacing the roof sensor causing the issue,. I had 11 problem free years with the roof after that.
I may have caused a scene in their showroom on a busy Saturday and was asked to leave 😜

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larryblag
1 hour ago, Grumpy old man said:

As mentioned before there's always two sides to the story, I'd like to hear more. Oh! Could the shim have been dropped into the engine while exploring the rattle? Ooh, the plot thickens.

Ps- we have heard of an NC being assembled from factory without a head gasket.

Yes, I remember that on here too 👍

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