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gearbox/clutch fault


Guest machinman

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Guest machinman

My NC is being stripped in the morning , the transmission was always very and shifting was alway hit and miss. Also selecting neutral at a stand was almost impossible regardless of clutch adjustment.

Then in recent journeys , once the engine is hot the gear selector would "freeze" in 1st gear as if welded. Switch engine off and its fine.

Interesting to find what the fault is.

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You seem the have a bit of a rare problem there. Let's hope it's sorted quickly for you so you're back on the road asap.

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Guest NCXrookie

My NC is being stripped in the morning , the transmission was always very and shifting was alway hit and miss. Also selecting neutral at a stand was almost impossible regardless of clutch adjustment.

Then in recent journeys , once the engine is hot the gear selector would "freeze" in 1st gear as if welded. Switch engine off and its fine.

Interesting to find what the fault is.

I take it this is a manual not a DCT. 

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Scootabout

Mine's developed minor issues recently - friction, and a '2 stage' change from 3rd to 2nd, as if going from 2nd to 1st via neutral.  I'll be interested to hear what your bike's problem is.

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Guest machinman

Yes, it is a manual. On an interesting note , the service guy at the dealer told me that Honda UK had experienced this problem on one of their fleet bikes and authorized mine to be stripped without asking any questions.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest machinman

Yes, it is a manual. On an interesting note , the service guy at the dealer told me that Honda UK had experienced this problem on one of their fleet bikes and authorized mine to be stripped without asking any questions.

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sandalfarm

And what happened next?

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Guest machinman

Totally disappointed, left bike at dealers while on holiday and came back to yet another adjusted clutch cable, which is obviously not the answer.

It is now re-booked in for Mon 14th to have the job done properly.

Frustrating as I need the bike daily and thought by buying a modern machine it would be more reliable.

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I had the same problems.

Sometimes a very stiff change, sometimes I'd change up and the pedal came back to resting position, then go for the nexr year, and there was nothing there, it just flapped up.

Also had a two stage change between gears, like going between 1st and 2nd.

A worn gear selector was changed at a low mileage, can't remember what, but less than 1,000 miles.

Improved it, didn't cure it.

Pissed me off so much in the end I traded it for a GSX. Knife through butter by comparison.

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Guest machinman

That's interesting, my bikes at the dealers now. They have put a clutch in it as instructed by Honda , but are waiting for some special tool to finish the job.

I too hope this is successful, once I've lost faith in a bike I trade them in.

Got my fingers crossed as I do like NCs and pennies are tight.

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We'll let's hope the bikes are sorted quickly. This is not good at all. This sort of problem should not be happening on fairly low mileage modern machines!

Edited by wozza
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Guest machinman

Update time!! My bike has had a clutch fitted and is sitting at the dealers awaiting some "special" tool thats on back order . Not convinced I'm being told the full story. I have contacted Honda to clarify and am waiting a response.

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Guest machinman

Apparently the "problem" tool is a piece of kit that holds the clutch basket while its being torqued up. My dealer is saying its on back order and are trying to fabricate one . It is allegedly NC specific.

Still find it strange that Honda authorise repairs when specialist tools are not available. I am still awaiting their response on this matter.

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  • 2 years later...
Guest goodevil

Sorry for reviving old thread but I've change oil on 6th of May with exact same oil as last year (Motul 5000 10w40 4T Semi-syn Oil 4L & HF204 Oil Filter), even same seller and same item on fleBay.

 

Last year my clutch was fine, had few instances when it was hard to switch gears, but would go away after few clutch presses.

 

So I've changed oil on Friday and rode on Sunday for about 40 miles. As engine got hot it was basically impossible to witch gears, I had to massage in every single shift with variation of clutch press and throttle.

 

Lets remove clutch cover and try to dissemble clutch. All plate were stuck together so hard I had to use screw driver to separate them. Because of brilliant Honda design requiring to undo drive shaft nut just to remove clutch plates from basket (on my ZX6R it's 6 Allen bolts and you have clutch plates in your hand duh) and having 27mm socket to undo it, I was stuck. After chatting with friend while borrowing socket, I've decided to change oil to best possible recommendation in service manual - MOTUL 7100 10W30 OIL AND HIFLO HF204 FILTER.

 

Well no difference while on centre stand - wheel stationary, pull in clutch, shift to 1st, release clutch, wheel spinning, pull in clutch, wheel still spinning at same speed and not possible to stop by putting boot on tire, press rear brake with pulled in clutch, wheel stops, release clutch, wheel spinning, pull in clutch, wheel spinning at same speed.

 

I had another chat with friend and he still believed my oil change was too much of coincidence so he suggested some Italian tune up. And guess what I was able to shift, still had problems in slow traffic, but no gear freezing. Rode to and back from work (60 miles) yesterday - much better. Removed clutch cover again, split plates just using fingers this time, put loads of oil in between and reassembled. This morning didn't had any problems during 30 mines ride, there were some not smooth shifting, but nothing major so I'm expecting this to improve even more over time.

 

So as strange as it sounds oil was the problem in my case. I still believe that semi-synthetic 10w40 is fine for NC700X and I just got unlucky with that single dodgy oil canister. But paying £70 for both oil service packs and spending hours trying to sort out this problem next year I'm going to buy 10w30 synthetic and hopefully avoid this nonsense.

 

Sorry for lengthy post, but hopefully someone will find this info useful!

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steelhorseuk

I only use Castrol Power One Racing 10W/30 4T Fully synthetic motorbike oil.

I just bought a 4 L can as its time to change it again so I will be doing that tonight along with a new oil filter (K&N). 

-Mark-

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Guest Ncmike

Hello goodevil

I am surprised that this change of oil should cause this kind of problem. Have you looked closely at the cans to see if there has been any change in the oil's specification whatsoever?

Modern engine/transmission oils have become increasingly more complex and incredibly more bespoke to the engines they are designed for. Only a slight variation from the manufacturer's specification can cause quite unusual results. A couple of years ago I was asked to help diagnose the cause of a car refusing to start after a garage had just done a lubrication service. It had been perfectly fine before the service but would not start from cold at all afterwards.

Only after very close examination, did I discover that the oil used by the garage was just a SLIGHT variation from the recommendation and it was causing the hydraulic tappets to prevent the valves from closing fully when the oil was cold, resulting in a loss of compression and no starting. Change of oil, end of problem.

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  • 10 months later...
Guest goodevil

Reviving thread again.

Problem was only cured for a little while, I've changed work so wasn't using bike much and also had some health issues. I'm riding properly this year again and surprise surprise - problem is back. Stripping clutch today...

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Do not know if this may help... when I used Motul 7100 on previous bike (Transalp) the gear shift felt "gummy/gluey" (do not know how to exactly describe the feeling) . On a positive note, gearshifts were less clunky. However, the "gummy/gluey" feeling was not nice at all so drained the oil after only 300km. Reverted back to Silkolene Pro 4 (fully synt) 10W-40.

 

Others may swear by Motul... I would not put it in my NC. Since Silkolene Pro 4 10W-30 is not available in Malta I think I will use Comp 4 10W-30 which is synthetic-based/part-synthetic.

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Guest goodevil

So I'm back with update. First few thing for those who will try to disassemble clutch themselves.

  • Clutch design is just terrible to work on, even if you have all "magic" Honda tools. Good news you don't need any of those, if you not picky. But you will need 27mm socket, torque wrench or at least decent length drive for use socket and liquid gasket!
  • First you will need to disassemble whole clutch basket to get to plates. Not use if it is common is low powered bikes, but ZX6R only need to remove cover and six bolts to remove plates.
  • This brings us to staked nut for basket removal. Don't be scared as I was - stake only adds extra 20 N.m torque. Nut is done at 128 N.m (torque of passenger car wheel bolt is ~120 N.m) so you dealing with maximum of 150 N.m to undo nut. You will be able to undo it by hand with any long bar or torque wrench. No need for impact drive.
  • You will need 27mm socket! This is ridiculous size socket and you probably will have to buy it - no luck here.
  • Special tool to hold basket in place, while undoing nut! $20-$70 to buy OR you put bike in a 5th gear, press down on rear brake pedal. This will keep basket in place, not 100% though, remember you have chain slack. Key is to undo nut with single slow steady push. Torque is not that big and chain SHOULD be fine. I give no guaranty on chain though, I would be very surprised if it would do any damage, but might depend on age and condition of your chain. Really it's your call to buy tool or not.
  • You can't assemble clutch plate by plate - brilliant design (sarcasm)! What makes it easier is to use springs and pusher plate to half assemble basket, massage all plates into basket in one go, remove plate and springs to get access to shaft for basket nut.
  • Tightening up the nut is easier than to undo it. If you don't have basket tool like me - wedge wooden stake through rear wheel just below swing arm. This will keep wheel in place and therefore basket in place too. You can just use rear brake pedal again, but with stake you are going to do less of leg acrobatics. I would recommend using torque wrench set at 128 N.m to tighten nut as it torque range where it is hard to judge and easy to overdo it. I did stake mine nut after, but it's pretty much few light taps on screwdriver with hammer - probably not worth it.

So back to my clutch.

Both steel and friction plates were fine. Friction ones were nearly new and easily within thickness required by manual. Steels were absolutely flat, couldn't fit any gap tool while having steels on glass table cover. Steels were blackish in color though.

My guess it was problem with oil, however not because part vs full synthetic. More likely either I got lucky and got canister of oil made not to standards OR previous owner had some bad oil in and it started the build up on steels.

So I've send 4 hours yesterday sanding steels with p800 wet sandpaper. Note to others don't wet sand original steels using water - it's made from such a poor steel it starts to rust within an hour if not in oil. Found this myself, so had to quickly sand them again using oil as lubricant.

Tested bike today hard riding it around town for 15miles and it seems fine. Clutch not smooth as in my ZX6R, but I haven't ridden others NC700 so it might be how it supposed to feel. No sticking though. We'll see how it handles short city commutes for few weeks and I will be back with an update.

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Wont a 27mm rear wheel socket work ?

I am guessing its a previous owner really bad oil or clutch use, I use the cheapest ,usually motul 5000 oil ,and have no problems after 55000 miles.

Thankyou for your detailed adventure into clutch problem !

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