gearbox/clutch fault

[embee 7,288]

I wouldn't accuse Honda of using "such a poor steel" because they rust quickly in air/water, that's what most steel does, particularly certain steels with higher physical properties and especially if you've just rubbed them with abrasive. In the environment inside the engine it won't, in fact it's often bad practice to electroplate things used inside engines (potential embrittlement effects), and high spec fasteners like con-rod bolts or main bearing bolts are usually phosphated or similar. You may find the blackish colour of the plates is a surface treatment like phosphate etc.

Oil specs can have a significant effect on wet clutch operation, which is why I usually suggest sticking to what you know works well for you. Personally that's one of the reasons I use Castrol Power1 (semi-synth version), I've never had any issues with it and find clutches usually free off pretty cleanly with it,  so just keep on using it. Other oils are available.

Hope your issues are solved, and thanks for the info, it's all useful stuff for owners to know.

[Guest streetsahead3]

I've posted earlier how my gearbox was very stiff and finding neutral sometimes impossible.

Using a quality synthetic Fuchs oil 10/40 helped but this combined with an adjustable 'Shorty' clutch lever has totally eliminated all the sticking issues.

These adjustable short levers give far more leverage due to both their size and adjustibility.

My bike is a 2012 model and it is worth noting that the later model years do have a 'dog leg' lever to increase travel - Could be something in it !! 

I did 150 miles on Sunday all on Devon A and B roads with hundred's of gear changes and some into 1st gear at speed without issue.

[Guest goodevil]

I just use adjustable wrench on rear axle nut, so yes it might be same 27mm size. Still 27mm socket is not included in every set.

@embee you probably right, I'm not really educated in steels much, just found it strange for steel to rust so fast.

@streetsahead3 longer clutch cable pull might improve the situation, but doubt it's a solution, unless something was wrong with your original leaver. What is happening, I would guess, as plates have more space to move, as soon as you pull in the clutch, plates get unstuck from transmission movement and vibrations. I used to pull in clutch and blip my throttle to be able to shift - same thing, clutch basket gets extra vibrations and plates get unstuck. It probably was oil - when I've switched oil it helped, but haven't solved my problem

[trisaki 2,029]

I use and supply  activ8 oil addative  got it in all my vehicles from 125 semi auto my 2 Nc700xs my mazda camper  my works van - run sweet and certainly  not clutch or gearbox  issues 

[embee 7,288]

I'd be very careful about activ8 and similar additives.

As far as I'm aware activ8 used to be basically chlorinated paraffins, an extreme pressure additive used once upon a time in heavy duty gearboxes (back in the 1930's I think). This works very well in the typical 4-ball test rigs often used to demonstrate the anti-scuff properties (see for example https://www.scribd.com/doc/77921431/Four-Ball-Test ) so the salesmen can make it look like a wonder treatment, but in higher temperature environments typical of engines it can cause serious chemical attack, especially of bronzes but other materials also and critically at piston rings/liners where temperatures are highest basically due to the release of HCl (hydrochloric acid) at elevated temperatures. As far as I know chlorinated paraffins are not used in the lubricant industry any more, their use being mainly in plastics, paints, flame retardants etc, and perhaps a small amount in metal cutting though I suspect this is more or less phased out now. Ref https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/290855/scho0109bpgr-e-e.pdf

I may be wrong and maybe activ8 and similar products are not based on chlorinated paraffin, but personally I wouldn't use anything of this type. A good quality oil from a reputable manufacturer will have all the necessary anti-wear additives for modern engines.

[Guest Mac750]

Hi good bad.

Sounds from your discription like a standard Honda clutch set up.

" Special tool"  is a clutch basket holder used to hold the basket from rotating whilst the 27mm nut is undone. These look like a small frying pan that Jamie Oliver's apprentice has burnt a hole in and the outside ring has slots which match the basket slots. And the frying pan handle wedges against the engine case to lock it and the basket. Available from M&P for £20 I would have been very suspicious of the Honda dealer saying he hasn't got one.

 

 One of the things I would have suspected from your problem discrption may have been worn grooves on the walls of the inner basket, these can slow or prevent the clutch from engaging or disengaging smoothly causing clutch drag. This is normally found on high miles or bikes doing lots of stop start riding in big cities. Easy fix is to wet and dry the groves down back to smooth. 

Clutch springs can become weak and again M&P can supply " heavy duty " springs but I found the best answer was to get Honda OE springs. M&P also supply Vesrah clutch kits but again I went for Honda OE.  When I renewed the  Honda clutch the bike had 70,000 miles on it,  I would be surprised to find a manual NC needing a clutch kit just yet unless it's used for delivery work in a city.

Hope you got it repaired okay. 

[motorbykcourier 293]

Ok for what its worth here is my experience - take what you will from it.

At around 70K miles I was at the point of changing to a different clutch for the same issue.

But decided to change from 10w/30 to 10w/40 - fully synthetic.

Instant improvement.

Also, at around the same time I'd been farting about with different chains !!??

Upshot was using normal (good quality) chain and running it a bit on the slack side also helped.

And that's it....

We're now at ~140K miles and gear box / clutch is best its ever been.

At most recent service we (Paul from More Moto and I) decided we'd try some Putoline Nano tech oil

Definitely a further small improvement

[Guest Nick.Stoner]

If Your NC with DCT have gearbox fault with blinking dash and You changed your sprocket wheel s and chain, check your sprocket. It should have 39 tooth instead 43. 43 is for manual.

 

But DID catalogue does not recognize between NC700 with DCT or Manual. 

 

once again 39 is for DCT and 43 is for manual

Edited April 24, 2017 by Nick.Stoner

[Guest goodevil]

Well after about 100 miles of city riding my clutch problem seems to be creeping back in. It's not as bad as it was before, but I recon it might get worse. By the way my basket groves are mint, checked during disassembly. Everything seems to be mint, except glazed steels, which were cleaned to bare metal before reassembly. My mind now leaning towards direction of friction plates - though measured fine, while cold and dry, good there be some kind of defect making them expand while getting hot in oil? Or maybe friction plates surface is affected by whatever glazed my steels? Maybe I need to disassemble clutch and this time clean both steel and friction plates.

 

Also I'm thinking of trying using Shell Advance Ultra 4T 10W-40 Fully Synthetic oil - my track zx6r is happy with it, so maybe it will be good for NC700X too.

[Guest machinman]

3 hours ago, goodevil said:

Well after about 100 miles of city riding my clutch problem seems to be creeping back in. It's not as bad as it was before, but I recon it might get worse. By the way my basket groves are mint, checked during disassembly. Everything seems to be mint, except glazed steels, which were cleaned to bare metal before reassembly. My mind now leaning towards direction of friction plates - though measured fine, while cold and dry, good there be some kind of defect making them expand while getting hot in oil? Or maybe friction plates surface is affected by whatever glazed my steels? Maybe I need to disassemble clutch and this time clean both steel and friction plates.

 

Also I'm thinking of trying using Shell Advance Ultra 4T 10W-40 Fully Synthetic oil - my track zx6r is happy with it, so maybe it will be good for NC700X too.

I'd still be inclined to change the steels.

[Guest goodevil]

22 hours ago, machinman said:

I'd still be inclined to change the steels.

Could you elaborate?

 

I've rebuilt my ZX6R clutch - slightly warped and glazed steels (warp within manual limit) and friction plates under recommended thickness. Replaced friction plates, sanded steels and it is working fine since.

 

Clutch is always perfectly fine while cold, so it would mean steel characteristics changed only for post specific temperature application. I'm not fused with replacing, but heard way too many stories about replacing parts, before figuring the actual problem, which result in either not cured problem, partially cured problem, o temporary problem solution with same damage to newly installed components.

[Guest goodevil]

22 hours ago, machinman said:

I'd still be inclined to change the steels.

http://www.motorcycle-road-and-race.co.uk/ebc-srk-clutch-kit-honda-nc-700-manual-2012-2013 seems to be only option available in UK, unless you want to buy steels one by one

[Guest goodevil]

So I've disassembled clutch again on Saturday. Steels weren't glazed but all plated were stuck together.

I've started oil sanding steels with p400 this time, but noticing how slow it is thought to myself "screw it, this last attempt before buying EBC clutch kit" and switched to p240 sandpaper.

Engine is not powerful so I would rather get a bit of slipping in a clutch, but be able to shift freely. 

Changed oil filter and filled with Shell Advance Ultra 4T 10W-40 Fully Synthetic oil.

Rode for three days so far - no slipping, clutch doesn't stuck much so far and is very smooth sometimes. If I pull in clutch while slowing down, revs drops to idle and try to shift - it's quite choppy. If I keep revs 2k or above after pulling in clutch it shift smoothly.

Big difference between two makes me wonder there might be problem other than clutch plates and glazed steels just being symptom of it.

[Guest Mac750]

I know it sounds simple but where the clutch actuating lever sits on top of the clutch cover have a look at the cable .

On the South African forum I saw mention of the lever being at the wrong angle on 2012-2915 machines. This caused the cable to rub against the  adjuster ( engine end) and rubbing can be seen on the cable where it catches. 

The cure was a simple tweek of the lever to make the cable run smoothly. 

It was reported to eliminate clutch drag and make changing gear smoother. 

Hope that helps.

[embee 7,288]

6 minutes ago, Mac750 said:

..... where the clutch actuating lever sits on top of the clutch cover have a look at the cable .

.....

The cure was a simple tweek of the lever to make the cable run smoothly. 

 

This is exactly the same situation with the Deauville. The cable outer abutment is in a small steel bracket bolted on the engine sidecase, and invariably it's not at exactly the right angle and the cable inner rubs on the edge as it comes out, causing wear and eventual strands breaking. Simple fix with an adjustable wrench to tweak the steel bracket until it lines up correctly. I'm not sure what the NC looks like in detail, item 5 here

https://www.bike-parts-honda.com/pieces-honda-detail-71520-71520-NC750XAE-2015-E_05-NC+750+X+ABS.html

 

 

[Guest goodevil]

I'm going on holiday, so I have a look and make pictures after I'm back. Cheers guys!