non-synth oil

[Guest bikeknut]

Was thinking of using a non-synth oil after the initial change as some on this forum have advocated but I can't seem to find anything that isn't at least semi-synth. Anyone know of a suitable mineral oil?

[bazza 3,629]

Was thinking of using a non-synth oil after the initial change as some on this forum have advocated but I can't seem to find anything that isn't at least semi-synth. Anyone know of a suitable mineral oil?

why? Its not like we rev to 21,000 or anything. please explain.The oil firms spend millions on developing their products -I had a tour around the Castrol perfomance lab in Pangbourne some yeras ago.

They had a CBR600 motor out of a race bike that had been linked to a laptop as it raced around Brands.They then stripped the motor,measured it all and rebuilt putting in their  new oil. The engine was then "ridden" the same -around the track via the laptop, replicating every rev and gear change for 200 laps

it was then stripped again and all parts checked.NO discernable wear was found!

That was really good to see - and we were all impressed!

 

bazza

[embee 7,288]

Just use a good brand semi-synth suitable for wet clutch motorcycle engines. JASO-MA shows it is tested to be suitable for wet clutch use. 10W-30 is what's in the book, though 10W-40 is also fine for our temperatures. Don't get too hung up on oil discussions on t'internet, they are a bit like religions, they are always right and all the others are wrong.

 

(from 35yrs working in engine design/development)

 

If you really want, you can of course use absolutely anything (or nothing). 

[Guest EasyTiger]

If you really want, you can of course use absolutely anything (or nothing). 

I have tried using absolutely nothing.

In a characterful Italian bike.

It proves far more expensive...

[Guest Neil700]

Not to open old debate again, but I use Castro Magnatec 10-40. Runs like dream, gear change is sweat and doesn't use a drop.

[Guest bikeknut]

Ok. Can get Castrol 4T 10/30 semi synth from my local Halfords. I will stick with that.

[Tex 36,817]

Ok. Can get Castrol 4T 10/30 semi synth from my local Halfords. I will stick with that.

That's what my dealer used on the first service on my Integra. A choice I was entirely happy with. And, yes, Murray (Embee) is quite right about oil discussions on forums - you should have seen the roasting I got for having the temerity to disagree with a poster - they are a sure route to conflicts. And ones without winners.

[usabikes 440]

A mineral 10-40 would be the go if you can't find a mineral 10-30. With quick genuflect to Murray (good having you here sir!) I would still tend to follow the advice I received from the Honda New Zealand National Service Manager (no less!) who, when I asked about running a full synth, answered:

 

"I would let that engine run out to (12,000 miles) on the mineral before switching to full synthetics".

 

This flies in the face of the Mobil 1 website that recommends using their fine product from day one and she'll be right! However it does ring a bell with us older types and seems to make sense. I won't use even a semi-synth until 20,000ks. Further, I would follow the advice of my old mate Gerry who worked in the oil industry all his life and said  "A good quality oil will typically lose up to 20% of its' viscosity in 1000 miles running, the rate of loss then slows and the life of the (mineral) oil is about 3000 miles in normal use."  Article here:~ http://www.realclassic.co.uk/techfiles/oil030319.html

 

But I have been known to have odd views :-)

[usabikes 440]

That's what my dealer used on the first service on my Integra. A choice I was entirely happy with. And, yes, Murray (Embee) is quite right about oil discussions on forums - you should have seen the roasting I got for having the temerity to disagree with a poster - they are a sure route to conflicts. And ones without winners.

 

Simon - "Don't mention the war! I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it..."

[Tex 36,817]

Graeme, exactly

Back in 1998 I bought a new Triumph Sprint and when my dealer mentioned he would be putting fully synthetic in at the first service I was so aghast I actually rang Triumph in Hinckley. I spoke to a very nice, calm and reassuring guy from 'Technical' who said (in effect) "Don't worry, I helped design that bike and it'll be fine. Trust me."

I did trust him. And it was fine. Perfect, in fact. Went like stink, never used a drop of oil. Ever since then I've just, sort of, accepted that the manufacturers do actually know more about such things than I do.

To each his own - I have every sympathy with your viewpoint, by the way - and it's up to all of us to do what we think is best to look after our bikes. Enjoy!

[usabikes 440]

Aye! Gotta admit we're splitting hairs pretty much with wondering about modern oils in modern engines.

Heck, the EFI is smarter than I am never mind the rest of the bike!

 

Nearly bought an early low mileage Sprint instead of the NC - very tidy - but I have gone off carbs as Fuel injection finally seems to have sorted itself out. Still it would have been nice to have a modern Brit bike. Unfortunately this 700 seems to suit me pretty much down to the ground and I'm too happy to change :-)

 

Good on ya,

Graeme

[embee 7,288]

A polite discussion about oil? Whatever is wrong? 

 

I can't really think of any technical reason to use a mineral oil in preference to a semi-synth, but as said, use whatever you feel happy with.

[usabikes 440]

A polite discussion about oil? Whatever is wrong? 

 

I can't really think of any technical reason to use a mineral oil in preference to a semi-synth, but as said, use whatever you feel happy with.

Hey Murray - while I've got u there: what is the story with Simon's experience using full synth from day one? Like him, it would seem to be a "this is madness! No, this is Sparta moment". It obviously worked out fine but I'm blowed if I know why it should.

How on earth can a new donk run-in on synth?

Thanks again

[embee 7,288]

There are 2 aspects really, first the break-in process itself and second the function of the oil.

 

The break-in is primarily for the bores/rings, not much else in the engine side of things really needs much in the way of break-in. Transmission gears do benefit, so an engine break-in serves that purpose too.

 

The bores and rings are manufactured deliberately with a somewhat rougher surface than the long term ideal, the actual profile of the surface is such that the high spots (on a microscopic scale) will more or less extend through the oil film thickness. The ring and bore surfaces interact physically and these "asperities" are gradually worn away to achieve "lapped" surfaces which fit together better than could be machined separately, achieving the optimum gas sealing and minimum oil consumption. When the surfaces are fully bedded in the geometry of the honing (the grooves in the bore surface) is such that the volume and depth range of the grooves is just sufficient to hold enough oil for lubrication but no greater than necessary (to minimise consumption and reduces absorbed fuel contamination and HC emissions etc).

 

This is basically just a function of the metal surface profiles.

 

The key aspect to a successful break-in is to achieve the controlled wear process without the asperities becoming so hot they weld together and then tear small bits of metal out of the surface ("scuffing"). Scuffing results in an uncontrolled deeply scarred surface, subsequent wear and oil consumption is then much greater than necessary. Local temperatures (on a micro-scale) are principally affected by sliding speed and contact pressure, hence the importance of gradually increasing engine speed throughout the break-in as the surfaces progressively bed-in and the load bearing surface area increase, so reducing the local contact pressure.

 

The oil viscosity provides the thickness of the oil film, depending on the geometry of the surfaces, sliding speeds and the local temperature. The hydrodynamic effect is no different for mineral/semi/synth oil, just viscosity. The anti-wear additives in the oil help prevent the micro-welding, plus of course the cooling effect of the oil itself. The different stability or service life properties of mineral/semi/synth don't really affect the break-in since it is a pretty short term process, on a test bed a full development break-in would be typically 10hrs, that gets the engine to the condition where it will not suffer any harm from running at full load/speed etc. On the road you can't control the conditions as easily, so 20hrs is a more typical duration, which probably equates to something around 500miles or so. It will still continue to "bed-in" and loosen up, depending on the model, for many hundreds of hours. The break-in should be progressive, gradually increasing speeds and loads used, adding more load at lower speeds first then working up the range until you should be briefly using full throttle and allowing the engine to rev out in lower gears as you add mileage. Speed is the primary aspect, load is not quite as important.

 

It is not desirable to break-in an engine on an oil which does not contain the usual anti-wear additives since scuffing is more likely. Gear teeth can scuff too, which is why "bike oils" usually contain typically double the phosphorus (e.g. ZDDP and similar products) content of modern car engine oils (phosphorus etc will cause catalyst deterioration so is kept to a low level in car oils).

 

Hope that helps a bit.

[Guest Southerner]

I don't have the Handbook with me, but doesn't it specify fully synth?

[usabikes 440]

There are 2 aspects really, first the break-in process itself and second the function of the oil.

 

The break-in is primarily for the bores/rings, not much else in the engine side of things really needs much in the way of break-in. Transmission gears do benefit, so an engine break-in serves that purpose too.

 

The bores and rings are manufactured deliberately with a somewhat rougher surface than the long term ideal, the actual profile of the surface is such that the high spots (on a microscopic scale) will more or less extend through the oil film thickness. The ring and bore surfaces interact physically and these "asperities" are gradually worn away to achieve "lapped" surfaces which fit together better than could be machined separately, achieving the optimum gas sealing and minimum oil consumption. When the surfaces are fully bedded in the geometry of the honing (the grooves in the bore surface) is such that the volume and depth range of the grooves is just sufficient to hold enough oil for lubrication but no greater than necessary (to minimise consumption and reduces absorbed fuel contamination and HC emissions etc).

 

This is basically just a function of the metal surface profiles.

 

The key aspect to a successful break-in is to achieve the controlled wear process without the asperities becoming so hot they weld together and then tear small bits of metal out of the surface ("scuffing"). Scuffing results in an uncontrolled deeply scarred surface, subsequent wear and oil consumption is then much greater than necessary. Local temperatures (on a micro-scale) are principally affected by sliding speed and contact pressure, hence the importance of gradually increasing engine speed throughout the break-in as the surfaces progressively bed-in and the load bearing surface area increase, so reducing the local contact pressure.

 

The oil viscosity provides the thickness of the oil film, depending on the geometry of the surfaces, sliding speeds and the local temperature. The hydrodynamic effect is no different for mineral/semi/synth oil, just viscosity. The anti-wear additives in the oil help prevent the micro-welding, plus of course the cooling effect of the oil itself. The different stability or service life properties of mineral/semi/synth don't really affect the break-in since it is a pretty short term process, on a test bed a full development break-in would be typically 10hrs, that gets the engine to the condition where it will not suffer any harm from running at full load/speed etc. On the road you can't control the conditions as easily, so 20hrs is a more typical duration, which probably equates to something around 500miles or so. It will still continue to "bed-in" and loosen up, depending on the model, for many hundreds of hours. The break-in should be progressive, gradually increasing speeds and loads used, adding more load at lower speeds first then working up the range until you should be briefly using full throttle and allowing the engine to rev out in lower gears as you add mileage. Speed is the primary aspect, load is not quite as important.

 

It is not desirable to break-in an engine on an oil which does not contain the usual anti-wear additives since scuffing is more likely. Gear teeth can scuff too, which is why "bike oils" usually contain typically double the phosphorus (e.g. ZDDP and similar products) content of modern car engine oils (phosphorus etc will cause catalyst deterioration so is kept to a low level in car oils).

 

Hope that helps a bit.

 

That's the kind of thing I was after. Thanks very much. So when Honda stipulate a 500 km running-in they're pretty on the mark and one can use a mineral through to a top synthetic with confidence?

 

Similarly, I take it you think that, in regard to the gears that also need running-in, even a synthetic will enable them do so?

 

When you mention higher levels of phosphorous in bike oils I assume you are referring to mainly to SG, SH & SJ additive packages?

As an aside: When I had the Norton I read that Mobil1 V-Twin 20-50 also had a higher level of Boron (and one or two other additives that I can't remember) specifically for the needs of an air-cooled engine.

 

If I remember rightly cars oils have moved away from Phosphorous & Zinc to Molybdenum not because Molybdenum is better but because of government imposed emissions standards, but bike oils have not generally moved past SJ and so have retained higher P & Zn. The trend in recent years towards thinner oils seems to me driven by government imposed environmental considerations rather than what is best for the engine.

 

Having said that, unlike racing, typical road use does not place high demands on a 30W oil. My impression is that Honda have stipulated a 10-30 because of the lower windage and general drag of a 30W over say a 50W at normal engine operating temperature - with a concomitant improvement in MPG, but that a 40 or 50 will provide better protection should we feel the urge to dial it through the mountains up one hot saturday (oops! Sorry, forgot you fellas in England don't have any mountains). Does that sound right to you?

 

I can't leave this chat without asking you what oil you run in your S and how often you change it and the filter?

By the time my next oil change comes around I'll have about 10,000 km on the mill and based on this discussion will move to a full synthetic (everybody seems to say "you only need that in a racer" but I like the VIs and TBNs) 0-40 or 0-50.

 

Thank you again for taking the time to explain all this!

[embee 7,288]

Views on viscosity usually tends towards using lower values consistent with the acceptable oil film thicknesses. Most lubrication areas generate their own oil films by hydrodynamics (the relative motion and the shape of the gap), which is the principal factor requiring the various clearances used in bearings. The pump is required to get the oil to the right places, the critical one is usually getting the oil into the crank at the main bearings so it can then flow to the big ends through drillings in the crank. The lower the viscosity the easier it is to get the oil into the crank and the flow rate increases ensuring a generous supply to the big ends and providing good cooling of surfaces. Higher viscosity causes more shear stress and more drag, more heat generated, and less flow, so can actually result in higher local temperatures than with lower viscosity. The higher temp will reduce the local viscosity anyway, so you often don't gain anything regarding bearing load capability.

 

Materials and surface finishes used nowadays mean that low viscosity oils will still provide adequate film thickness.

 

Regarding the political aspects of regulation, I tend to be more generous towards the regulators. I started in the industry at the end of the 70's, when emission control was still relatively new, and the UK regulation was years behind the US/California. I've always worked for companies which relied on big exports to the rest of the world, USA especially, so emission compliance and then fuel economy has always been foremost in the work. No certification means no sales. Had the EPA (49 states) and CARB (California) not taken a firm stance we would not have sen the dramatic developments in cleaner (regulated pollutants) vehicles. The manufacturers always groaned and complained about tighter regs, but eventually they were met, the EPA were not daft and didn't set standards without understanding that they could actually be achieved. Manufacturers sometimes need leaning on a bit.

 

If you are unfortunate enough to follow a vehicle dating from the 50's or 60's, you'll soon understand just how much cleaner modern vehicles are. You can taste the hydrocarbons.

 

Engines have never been as fuel efficient and low toxic emissions, plus reliability levels and durability which were only dreamt of just a decade or two ago. Specific output and power/weight of power units is better than ever. Enjoy the progress.

[Tex 36,817]

Engines have never been as fuel efficient and low toxic emissions, plus reliability levels and durability which were only dreamt of just a decade or two ago. Specific output and power/weight of power units is better than ever. Enjoy the progress.

Very well said. Comparing my NC750 to the bikes I started riding on in the 1960's is like comparing a smart phone to a 'press button A'. Younger readers may need to ask their dad..

Thanks for the excellent and most informative replied, Murray. Really enjoyed them.

[usabikes 440]

Good stuff Murray, thanks again!

I shall modify future oil choices with your advice in mind.

 

Graeme

[Rocker66 34,437]

Very well said. Comparing my NC750 to the bikes I started riding on in the 1960's is like comparing a smart phone to a 'press button A'. Younger readers may need to ask their dad..

Thanks for the excellent and most informative replied, Murray. Really enjoyed them.

As a kid whenever seeing a call box I would always press button B just on the off chance. It worked more than once.

[Guest sllewji]

As a kid whenever seeing a call box I would always press button B just on the off chance. It worked more than once.

 

So _that's_ how you funded your impressive bike list