Additional Oil Changes - Worth It?

[shiggsy 529]

Actually there is an area where more frequent oil changes can hurt. There have been two studies, one by Ford, running vehicles with a differing range of oil change intervals and analysing the quantities of different metals present in the oil. They also ran one engine with more frequent oil changes, (something like 3k or 4k), this naturally enough had less quantities of metals, except for one, one particular type of metal consistently showed an increase in quantity present above the normal and extended intervals vehicles. What they discovered was the new oil has an acidic chemical reaction with any old oil present and this reaction attacked this particular type of metal. So the more often the oil was changed, the more this type of metal suffered. 

 

I had one bike that I did 100k on sticking to the recommended 6k interval changes, another I did well over 100k on and I used to change the oil and filter on that every 10k (fully synthetic on both).

[Guest cantyke]

You had Vauxhall Novas in Canada? Or are you a UK ex-pat?

UK ex-pat since 2001.

[Guest chickenflaps]

 

 

James - You can buy a special tool for this but I've always tightened oil filters 'firmly' by hand and had no subsequent problems/leaks. Don't forget to smear some fresh oil around the seal and maybe drop a small amount into the filter before you fit it - can prevent the first few seconds of a dry start.

while i fully agree with the "dry start" comment, it reminds me of a bike mag years ago who decided to see how long a bike would run without any oils at all in it.  They took an XS1100 Yamaha, drained every liquid out of it and went around a race track until it broke...after 85 miles!

[michael 324]

Speaking of lubrication (Warning: Tangent Approaches) I've always been fascinated by the pre-oiler and its application for smaller engines.

 

Puts positive oil pressure via electric pump, before you hit the starter button. 

 

No "dry starts."

 

http://www.engineprelube.com

 

http://www.varnaproducts.com/Pages/Products.php

[Guest Peterpoddy]

No the NC is not a car engine. It has now been well documented that the idea that it is half a Jazz engine came about by the comments of a Japanese engineer regarding the fact that it has some Jazz technology being mistranslated..

Well, and the fact that it's the same bore and stroke and is exactly half the capacity may have something to do with it.....

[Rocker66 34,433]

Well, and the fact that it's the same bore and stroke and is exactly half the capacity may have something to do with it.....

OK have it your way Personally I prefer to believe Honda. I bet you can't fit many Jazz bits in an NC or vice versa

[Guest Peterpoddy]

OK have it your way Personally I prefer to believe Honda. I bet you can't fit many Jazz bits in an NC or vice versa

 

Noting to do with 'my way' dude, it's just the facts and that's how some people interpreted them. You'd have to be a bit daft not to see their point once it's explained..

 

NC engine -  73.0mm x 80.0mm, twin cylinder giving 670cc displacement

http://www.honda.co.uk/motorcycles/scooters/#!/integra/specifications/

 

Jazz engine, known as the L13a (Third one in the list)

73.0mm x 80.0mm, 4 cylinder giving 1339cc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_L_engine

 

(The exact 2 cyl capacity is actually 669.7cc, and doubling that gives 1339.4 accounting for the rounded 1cc difference)

 

And also, someone on the American forum has actually taken the time to work out which parts they share:

http://no copying from other forums!/forum/nc700-technical/5349-nc700-honda-fit-jazz-component-sharing.html

 

Now I can see why people think the NC engine is basically half a Jazz engine, can you? It matters little if it's true or not

So yeah, obviously it's mainly a different engine, but there's some remarkable similarities and if the NC designer didn't scout round the Honda parts bin to keep costs down, then it's one hell of a coincidnce!

 

 

EDIT

 

Also, from the thread I linked to above, I found this useful snippet of info:

"Honda's Jazz/Fit L series engine shares some rotating parts and castings with Honda 75 and 90 hp outboard motors."

So you might even have some boat parts in there too! LOL!!!

Edited September 21, 2014 by Peterpoddy

[Guest robson]

and what's wrong with being falf of jazz engine???

[Rocker66 34,433]

If I knew what a falf was I could try answering that I didn't say that there was anything wrong with it so don't try putting words in my mouth. I just pointed out what Honda said in a press release

[Guest Peterpoddy]

and what's wrong with being falf of jazz engine???

 

Nothing at all. I never said there was. I just find it rather interesting, being a mechanically minded mechanic with a love of mechanical things.

[Guest robson]

Nothing at all. I never said there was. I just find it rather interesting, being a mechanically minded mechanic with a love of mechanical things.

 

it was more question to  Rocker since he wasn't glad from the jazz comparison.

[Guest Southerner]

UK ex-pat since 2001.

 

I spent some time working in Montreal over the winters of '94 and '95 - jeez, I've never experienced such cold!

 

Mind you, everything worked - unlike the UK when two flakes of snow brings the country to a standstill..!

[Tex 36,817]

Thanks for the link to the American forum Peter, I had read that thread but couldn't find it a second time to link it here. In future instead of saying "it's half a Jazz engine" we should, perhaps, say "It's half the size of a Jazz engine, shares the same general architecture and even shares some components with the Jazz. But that doesn't make it half of one".

That way everyone will know exactly where we stand and, presumably, be happy.

I don't think I'll be doing any additional oil changes on my bike - as I intend to use it most of the year round (not ice or snow, thanks. Been there, done that, still bear the scars..). And I certainly wouldn't if I had a Jazz (which, as we all know, isn't double an NC).

[bazza 3,629]

I checked an unmechanical friend's oil filter on his car (pardon my french) and found it so loose I couldn't believe it could seal. Could've undone it with 2 fingers. I have never used a strap wrench or any other kind of spanner to tighten an oil filter, always just hand tighten and it's probably still possible to overtighten this way too. What were the directions on the boxes over all those years? Something like: "hand tighten until seal seats and then tighten another 2/3 of a full turn". I like to make simple things hard but even I'm having trouble with that

 

Good idea to fill the new filter a couple of times with oil before you thread it on.

 

Excellent idea to do as Michael says and give it a new oil & filter before parking it up over winter and not starting it until Spring for the reasons he notes. Quite a lot of guys do the oil & filter in the Spring - nah.

Yes I agree- car type filters just wind on and then you tweak up with a firm grip - no real other way to go it as the body is only thin tin.Those chain type spanners only make it easier for small handed people.

Funny how they seem to tighten over time - maybe a techy member can tell us why?

[Guest Peterpoddy]

Thanks for the link to the American forum Peter, I had read that thread but couldn't find it a second time to link it here. In future instead of saying "it's half a Jazz engine" we should, perhaps, say "It's half the size of a Jazz engine, shares the same general architecture and even shares some components with the Jazz. But that doesn't make it half of one".

That way everyone will know exactly where we stand and, presumably, be happy.

Yeah, that's about the long and short of it.

I reckon Honda and their salesmen have been told to say it's not based on the Jazz as they think us tough old bikers will be put off by an association with an old farts car like the Jazz!

That said, have you been in a Jazz? They're great little cars. I'd buy one.

I don't think I'll be doing any additional oil changes on my bike (which, as we all know, isn't double an NC).

Me neither. 2 reasons:

It's pointless.

My NC is a tool not a toy. It exists almost solely to get me to work and back and running costs are key. At 12-13,000 miles a year I don't have the time or the desire to do 2 more oil changes.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Peterpoddy

[roddy 845]

Peter, We are identical with our use of the NC and do similar mileages and similar reasons to owning the NC.

 

I know its each to their own and all that, but I would advise to change the oil every 4,000 miles I don't think its pointless but common sense to keep the excellent engine in perfect working order. 

 

I know the arguments for not changing, But it would be interesting further down the line to see what problems occur or don't occur with long term use or high mileage use?. I can only go on personal experience but every bike I have owned I have always looked after the engine and never had any problems with them.

[shiggsy 529]

One advantage of changing at 4k miles is you can use cheaper oil, there's no point in using fully synthetic at those intervals.

[Guest Todd L.]

The 8k oil changes are for perfect conditions in a perfect world. I have seen multiple oil analysis reports from Blackstone Labs at 8k with 10w40 oil, and there was a significant drop in viscosity down to a light 30 weight. If you are using 10w30, you would be down to a 20 weight oil at 8k. Shearing is a major comcern in bikes that share the engine oil with the transmision. The oil gets chewed up very quickly and drops in viscosity as early as 2k. That's why you don't use a cheap oil at any interval, 4k included. 4-5k is a very reasonable and smart interval if you really want your engine to last. Do not skimp on oil, either synthetic or dino. Generally speaking a synthetic can fight off shearing better.

[Guest robson]

I have read somewhere that best full synthetic oils don't lose their parameters even after 15k miles,

some tests were done on Audi cars, conclusion was to change only the oil filter...

[shiggsy 529]

The 8k oil changes are for perfect conditions in a perfect world. 

 

Of course they are not, why on earth would manufacturers quote harmful oil change intervals.  

 

The only times you need to consider oil changes below the manufactured spec is if you use the vehicle in adverse conditions, do mainly short journeys or it needs a time based change.

 

Anyone care to explain how I got 145k on an 1200cc inline 4 doing oil changes at 10k intervals when the recommended change interval was 7k and it was still going strong when I retired it?

[Guest Todd L.]

I have read somewhere that best full synthetic oils don't lose their parameters even after 15k miles,

some tests were done on Audi cars, conclusion was to change only the oil filter...

Yes, there are some outstanding long term oil tests for cars and the extended intervals are warranted. The big difference is the shared wet sump of motorcycles that cars don't have. The extreme shearing that takes place due to the transmission destroys the viscosity after a short time. Example: On a Kawasaki KLR forum there are guys who run the super expensive Amsoil and tested at multiple intervals. At 2k the viscosity started to decrease and by 3k it had gone down a grade. Made no difference if they tested exotic synthetic or dino oil (some dino oils started to take a hit at 1500k). Luckily our NC is not as hard on oil as the barbaric KLR, but I would guess the DCT might be harder on oil than the manual. I go by what oil analysis proves, not some arbitrary number by the manufacturer. Feel free to do as you like, but I'll sleep better at night knowing my oil change intervals are backed up by scientific analysis in the real world.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Todd L.

[shiggsy 529]

I have read somewhere that best full synthetic oils don't lose their parameters even after 15k miles,

some tests were done on Audi cars, conclusion was to change only the oil filter...

 

Oil change interval for my car is 15k

[chris 357]

Yes, there are some outstanding long term oil tests for cars and the extended intervals are warranted. The big difference is the shared wet sump of motorcycles that cars don't have. The extreme shearing that takes place due to the transmission destroys the viscosity after a short time. Example: On a Kawasaki KLR forum there are guys who run the super expensive Amsoil and tested at multiple intervals. At 2k the viscosity started to decrease and by 3k it had gone down a grade. Made no difference if they tested exotic synthetic or dino oil (some dino oils started to take a hit at 1500k). Luckily our NC is not as hard on oil as the barbaric KLR, but I would guess the DCT might be harder on oil than the manual. I go by what oil analysis proves, not some arbitrary number by the manufacturer. Feel free to do as you like, but I'll sleep better at night knowing my oil change intervals are backed up by scientific analysis in the real world.

Arbitrary number of the manufacturer? That's as ill informed an assertion as any I've heard today.

What do you think their engineers do with all their test and warranty data?

[Guest Todd L.]

Arbitrary number of the manufacturer? That's as ill informed an assertion as any I've heard today.

What do you think their engineers do with all their test and warranty data?

Good luck with that viewpoint. The proof is in the lab reports, but I take it hard data doesn't count since I'm so "ill informed". Ride safe.

[shiggsy 529]

"Hello sir, we have completed our analysis and your engine is worn out. I'm afraid it is not covered under warranty because you stupidly had it serviced according to our service intervals. These are only intended as guides for laboratory conditions. If you had sent your oil away for analysis you would have discovered you needed to have it serviced twice as often as we told you".

 

How many people do you know who's engine has worn out because its had its oil changed at the intervals specified by the manufacturer, not failed due to component failure, actually worn out?  There are thousands of millions of cars in the world being serviced this way, if there was a problem we would know about it.  Oil manufacturers wouldn't stand for it, because people wouldn't use their oil if their engine wore out with recommended servicing.

Edited September 22, 2014 by shiggsy