Additional Oil Changes - Worth It?

[Guest robson]

come on guys, we all know why many consumer products like e.g. engine oil are recommended to be change often...

it's business, money got to roll (whether really is needed or not).  

In some of my old cars in the past I didn't even change oil at all, just kept the level and nothing really happened. 

[Guest Peterpoddy]

Peter, We are identical with our use of the NC and do similar mileages and similar reasons to owning the NC.

 

I know its each to their own and all that, but I would advise to change the oil every 4,000 miles I don't think its pointless but common sense to keep the excellent engine in perfect working order. 

 

I know the arguments for not changing, But it would be interesting further down the line to see what problems occur or don't occur with long term use or high mileage use?. I can only go on personal experience but every bike I have owned I have always looked after the engine and never had any problems with them.

Being as realistic as I can, it's likely I'll do 30-40,000 miles on my NCX before I swap it. It had 8000 on it when I bought it (I let someone else pay the depreciation) so that's going to put it at 40-50k.

I've personally taken 2 bikes to 32-35,000 miles with only routine oil changes, a 2001 955i Speed Triple and a 1998 CB500s, and we currently also have a Ducati ST3s with 32,000 miles on it. Again, no more than scheduled servicing.

I have absolutely no doubt at all that Honda can build an engine that will do 50k with ease. I also have no doubt that it's more likely the engine will outlast the rest of the bike!

Now, changing the oil twice as often, even if I do it myself, is going to be £50 a time, so around £250.

Money which will pay for a pair of tyres and most of a chain and sprocket kit, and that's where I'd rather put it.

By all means change your oil more often, but the chances are you'll never see any benefit IMO.

[chris 357]

Good luck with that viewpoint. The proof is in the lab reports, but I take it hard data doesn't count since I'm so "ill informed". Ride safe.

More like nearly 40 years working in the industry - much of it spent trying to convince engineers that it really was safe to extend service intervals - all based on facts that I and the engineers actually could understand.

Exactly what relevance does the degradation of oil over any mileage have if you do not know the effect that has on the machinery?

To be extreme a 99% degradation could be fine if the engine can live with 99.95% and no worse wear.

[Guest Peterpoddy]

Exactly what relevance does the degradation of oil over any mileage have if you do not know the effect that has on the machinery?

To be extreme a 99% degradation could be fine if the engine can live with 99.95% and no worse wear.

That's what seals it really. Not much anyone can argue with there I think.

[usabikes 440]

If Honda specify 10w30 & a mineral 10w30 has degraded to 10w20 or so after 3,000 miles (as well as having its TBN drop by 75 percent) is it still the oil Honda wants ib the engine? I suppose the answer is yes as they must know this. However I'd rather not keep using it for another 5,000 miles. A top synthetic may be another story but not a mineral or semi syn. it seems to me anyway.

[embee 7,288]

I usually try to keep clear of oil debates for all the above reasons. It goes along with petrol and coolant and break-in!

 

Like Chris above I've been in the industry (engines not oil) for about 37yrs now. The engineers know full well what happens to the oil and to their engines, they know what wear rates and degradation/contamination rates are with different drive cycles and usage. The recommended service intervals are very much a compromise, you have to come up with something but you can't cover all eventualities and types of use. The engine and oil industries have a hundred + years experience of making their products, it's not guess-work (though there are mistakes sometimes!)

 

I'd put forward a couple of things maybe to contemplate.

 

1 - Do more or less what the manufacturer recommends and you won't go far wrong.

2 - Ultimately it's your machine, do whatever you want with it.

 

Personally I tend to do an oil/filter change once a year, It's very much an overkill (I do typically 3k miles/year on each of my several "toys") but it keeps it simple and gives me a warm feeling. I use well known brand semi synth oil with a JASO-MA cert where appropriate in the bikes and manufacturer's oil filters.

 

Use whatever you want. Don't get too hung up on it.

 

There are a few tips which can help with reliable performance of the machine. Avoid too many short trips if you can, don't leave it idling to warm up (start, let it settle for perhaps 20-30sec, ride off gently), don't thrash it from cold, change the coolant every few years, blah blah.........but ultimately it's yours, do what you want.

[Slowboy 20,357]

 

Use whatever you want. Don't get too hung up on it.

Wise words sir, and thanks for a very clear and unbiased response

[usabikes 440]

 

There are a few tips which can help with reliable performance of the machine. Avoid too many short trips if you can, don't leave it idling to warm up (start, let it settle for perhaps 20-30sec, ride off gently), don't thrash it from cold, change the coolant every few years, blah blah.........

 

Sorry for the delay Murray, but what's the reasoning behind the short warm-up?

 

Thank you again

[embee 7,288]

When the cylinder is cold some fuel condenses on the cylinder wall (a large part of the reason why it need enrichment, formerly "choke", for cold starting), and similarly combustion products which is largely water can also condense. The fuel and water contaminate the oil on the surface. Leaving the engine idling to warm up means it takes a long time to reach a temperature where water no longer condenses and contaminates the oil film.

 

For the above reasons the mixture is set rich for starting and as soon as the engine is running it begins to ramp down the "after-start enrichment" over a few seconds (typically 10sec but it varies) down to a base fuelling setting for the temperature of the engine. Once the lambda sensor is up to temp it will switch to closed loop fuelling, controlled by the sensor to give "stoichiometric" A/F ratio (i.e. just the right ratio of air to fuel. I don't know any detail for the NC engine, but 45sec from cold start to closed loop is a reasonable ballpark.

 

You can reduce the amount of oil contamination by putting the engine under a bit of load and speed, i.e. ride/drive off gently. I usually wait the few seconds for the after-start enrichment to ramp down before riding off since it is often a multiplier and so means it can run pretty rich if you load it while the enrichment is on. As said, 20sec or so is enough for the engine to be running without the enrichment under most circumstances, or at least most of it will be off by then.

 

Just as an example, this is a measurement of injector pulsewidth (i.e. a measure of fuel added) after a cold start with the engine idling on one of my toys I took just out of interest. It shows the after-start enrichment clearly, then it reaches a base idle pulsewidth between 10-20sec, then it starts to reduce speed and enrichment as it starts to sense warming up. I suspect the blip at 100sec might be closed loop establishing (this is an old engine, modern engines reach this much faster). Something like 20sec gets you onto a reasonable fuelling for drive-away.

 

[usabikes 440]

Excellent. This is why we pay you that exorbitant retainer Seriously though, thanks for taking the effort to explain this, it's very useful.

 

You've managed to move me away from higher viscosity oil and from long warmups.

 

Do you have a moment to comment on the use of a lower viscosity base-level oil: 5W-30 or 0W-30/40? Is there any real reason to not use an oil which flows better at startup? Or is the difference too marginal to be concerned about?

 

Thanks mate

[embee 7,288]

I can't see any reason why you shouldn't use a lower "W" rating if you wish, don't know if Chris has anything to add. Better semi-synth and fully synth oils can offer what is essentially less viscosity change with temperature than traditional oils could, so anything up to 0W-60 or more is possible. I use a 0W-40 Mobil1 in my car, which it seems to like. I haven't seen anything departing much from the normal 10W-30 or 10W-40 in bike oils (JASO-MA rated for the wet clutch and higher anti-wear additives than car type oils). I know there are folk who use car type oils in bikes, that's up to you, personally I don't.

 

I'd definitely stick with the recommended "higher temp" value, the 30 or 40 rating, since this is where the engine lives most of its life (around 100C).

[Guest Peterpoddy]

Embee, thanks for that explanation, I found that very interesting and informative. I tend to get my gear on, sit on the bike,THEN start the engine and ride off. I think I'll start it before I put my lid and gloves on from now on. Cheers!

[usabikes 440]

Thanks Murray. I've found a few 0-40 or 5-30/40 full syn JASO MA oils that should do fine. It's nice to get near to the end of the quest for the holy oil grail...

 

I also have his habit Peter of getting togged up after the bike has started - too many years of riding bikes that I could never be quite sure were going to start for me, leading to lots of sweaty kicking. Paradigm shift now required...

 

Thanks again for taking the time Murray.

[Dave H 2,022]

I've had quite a few boxers in my time and quickly got out of the warming up habit. 

[usabikes 440]

Oops! Apologies Peter, I see I got your meaning exactly reversed. Friday night, too tired...

[chris 357]

I can't see any reason why you shouldn't use a lower "W" rating if you wish, don't know if Chris has anything to add. Better semi-synth and fully synth oils can offer what is essentially less viscosity change with temperature than traditional oils could, so anything up to 0W-60 or more is possible. I use a 0W-40 Mobil1 in my car, which it seems to like. I haven't seen anything departing much from the normal 10W-30 or 10W-40 in bike oils (JASO-MA rated for the wet clutch and higher anti-wear additives than car type oils). I know there are folk who use car type oils in bikes, that's up to you, personally I don't.

 

I'd definitely stick with the recommended "higher temp" value, the 30 or 40 rating, since this is where the engine lives most of its life (around 100C).

This is a topic I've never really delved into nor have I seen test data on the impacts. I've always tended to stick with the recommended grade & spec. and leave it at that.