chain life - could this be the answer?

[Mike5100 2,061]

a blowdry    The chain on my 700X lasted 14k miles but it was well shot by then.  This one is only at 8k so it's too early to judge, but I realised that last year I was washing the bike down with cold water after every ride once the roads got damp and the salt went down, but I wasn't drying it.

This year I have put the bike on the centrestand and spun the wheel and dried the chain with my air force blaster sidekick 

I've done this 4 times recently and the chain and its covering of sprayed on clag is not showing the slightest sign of red which it certainly did last year.   It takes me about 10 minutes to rinse and then blow dry, so although it's a clart on, it's not too bad really.

I will keep you posted

Mike

Edited November 11, 2014 by Mike5100

[Marte 127]

The best way to get a liquid past the O-ring barrier is to apply it to the chain while it's still hot. The chain will absorb it during the cooling, wether it's oil, or water.

So yours seems to me a sound idea as you rinse the bike just after riding and without the dryer the water coud get inside and eventually harm the chain.

[Guest snowball]

Thats a great idea ,how much was the hair dryer thingy please ...and does it blow warm air as well, Ta Dave.

Edited November 11, 2014 by snowball

[Mike5100 2,061]

Looks like you can get them for about £60 now but I bought it off Roy from ALL Year Biker who does the ACF 50 treatment.  I think it cost me £80-£90.  But it has been worth it just for the finish it gives to the bike after washing.  Much easier than trying to finish it with a wash leather.

Don't think it blows warm air - but to be honest it doesn;t matter it clears all the water droplets off your bike in no time.

Mike

Edited November 11, 2014 by Mike5100

[Tonyj 6,907]

I use the garden leaf Hoover / blower 2for1, gets the water out off the bolt heads etc.

[Slowboy 20,411]

Thats a great idea ,how much was the hair dryer thingy please ...and does it blow warm air as well, Ta Dave.

And use the heated grips as curling tongs......

[Tonyj 6,907]

Don't you know anything slow boy it's all about " product " gel ,thickener and shine could be talking about lube :0)

[Guest R120]

Do you wash your bike after every ride?

My poor NC hasn't had a clean in months. Caked in crap from the daily commute at the moment.

[Guest motorboy]

The best way to get a liquid past the O-ring barrier is to apply it to the chain while it's still hot. The chain will absorb it during the cooling, wether it's oil, or water.

So yours seems to me a sound idea as you rinse the bike just after riding and without the dryer the water coud get inside and eventually harm the chain.

Drying the chain is a good idea to keep the out side from rustng, but putting any thing thin enough on it to get pass the O rings will ruin the chain real fast   that's the problem with the stock chain  not enough grease in the links from the factory  mine went out at 8k I pulled apart several links dry and rusted

[Marte 127]

Is not my experience. Don't know what product you are referring to, may be it is down to a certain substance. I tried mainly with Tutoro oil and 80W90 - just applying it with a brush - and the OEM chain is fine now after having been quite "ill". Around 33.000 km now.

My impression is both oils can go through the o-ring barrier if applied on a hot chain.

I also injected Bardahl Poly S2 grease in the most tighten spots.

The amount of factory grease is really small and won't last for long in any case. So if you get to get some proper oil inside on a regular basis it won't do any harm IMO.

Drying the chain is a good idea to keep the out side from rustng, but putting any thing thin enough on it to get pass the O rings will ruin the chain real fast that's the problem with the stock chain not enough grease in the links from the factory mine went out at 8k I pulled apart several links dry and rusted

[Guest chickenflaps]

Do you wash your bike after every ride?

My poor NC hasn't had a clean in months. Caked in crap from the daily commute at the mo

Exactly.  I commute all year round (except in icy conditions), and I wash my bike each summer whether it needs it or not.

[roddy 845]

I hose it down quickly after every ride,

[Guest motorboy]

Is not my experience. Don't know what product you are referring to, may be it is down to a certain substance. I tried mainly with Tutoro oil and 80W90 - just applying it with a brush - and the OEM chain is fine now after having been quite "ill". Around 33.000 km now.

My impression is both oils can go through the o-ring barrier if applied on a hot chain.

I also injected Bardahl Poly S2 grease in the most tighten spots.

The amount of factory grease is really small and won't last for long in any case. So if you get to get some proper oil inside on a regular basis it won't do any harm IMO.

 

Don't want to start some thing so I'll say my piece and than shut up....If what your saying is right about letting oil get pass the O rings than at high speeds the centrifugal force of a hot chain would throw all the lube out and seize the chain in a few hundred miles like a non O ring chain that needs lube every 100 miles or so in the old days before O ring chains it was common to come back from a short ride and find kinked links that was just lubed and chain life was short like 5000 miles  if the oil can get pass the O rings to get in than it can get out  they call them sealed chains for a reason  when you lube one you are lubing the outside and the roller bushing only   hope I didn't step on any toes...

[Tex 36,817]

Yes, that's the whole point of an 'O' (or 'X') ring chain. The seals stop the factory grease from coming out and anything else from going in.

[Marte 127]

You are not stepping in any toe, I'm in fact pleased to discuss the issue and don't expect to convince anybody.

Your post sounds logical but probably has some weak point because my chain works under the principles I explained. Otherwise it wouldn't work and it would have collapsed long time ago.

A tyre for example is sealed mounted on the wheel, but a small amount of air is constantly coming out.

When the chain is still new or not damaged by corrosion my theory doesn't apply. But the rubber seals of an O-ring chain are constantly moving against the plates, so their sealing capacity decrease overtime and so does the tiny amount of grease they contain.

The amount of oil you can get past the O-rings is microscopic and it is entering because of vacuum forces produce during cooling. When the chain is moving, centrifugal forces may not be strong enough to make it go out again completely because of the combined action of sealing and surface tension.

I have a Tutoro oiler fitted since a few months after buying the bike (4000 km). And I've been applying 80W90 with a brush every 500 to 1000 km since 20.000 km after the chain got corroded and tightened in a very salty road.

Non O ring chains with automatic oilers are used for heavy duty industrial devices.

Non O ring chains are also used in racing motorcycles, being spray greased in nearly every boxes stop.

Don't want to start some thing so I'll say my piece and than shut up....If what your saying is right about letting oil get pass the O rings than at high speeds the centrifugal force of a hot chain would throw all the lube out and seize the chain in a few hundred miles like a non O ring chain that needs lube every 100 miles or so in the old days before O ring chains it was common to come back from a short ride and find kinked links that was just lubed and chain life was short like 5000 miles if the oil can get pass the O rings to get in than it can get out they call them sealed chains for a reason when you lube one you are lubing the outside and the roller bushing only hope I didn't step on any toes...

Edited November 16, 2014 by Marte

[Tex 36,817]

I applaud the way you've rescued your chain from an early grave. And your reasoning seems sound, although I suspect that it was the side plates that were seized up, rather than the pins/bushings. Good for you, though.

As to your other examples, without knowing exactly which industrial applications you refer to, I would suspect they are 'high load, low speed' situations as the oil 'fling' from a high speed chain was the reason for the invention of the 'O' rings in the first place.

Racing? Well, all the race bikes I work with use 'X' ring chains. And it's pretty uncommon to see unsealed ones these days. Except, possibly, on certain smaller 'classic' bikes where weight is an absolute premium. Bob Heath, for example, used one on his G50 to keep the weight down. But he was a total obsessive and didn't paint the frame to save the weight of the paint (and now we all do that . ).

Whatever, keep riding, keep smiling, keep posting!

[Mike5100 2,061]

I bow to Simon's greater knowledge about racing bikes.  But I also read that a plain chain (no O-ring or X ring) has considerably less friction and so if any racers do actually use them, this may be why.  Presumably they won't be racing on salty muddy roads and anyway they can chuck the chain away after every race.

Mike

[Guest scrumpymike]

If you don't lube an o-ring chain, the resultant corrosion will undermine the seals in time and then the factory lube is gone.

[ste7ios 469]

The O-rings have some friction with the metal parts of the chain, so they must be lubed to keep that friction to a minimal, and keep the O-rings' elasticity. They're getting harder with the time, i.e. less effective.

 

With X-rings they're trying to minimize that friction a lot more.

 

There is also a lot of friction between the chain and the sprockets, so we need lubrication there too.

 

Summarizing, a happy chain is a continuously fully lubricated chain. In industrial use (even with O-Rings) they're using an oil bath, or/and some oil injectors.

 

In motorcycles we can't do that easily... Spraying with sticky chain lube is not so effective because it's not working so well until the chain gets hot, and don't forget that's it's lossy. There are periods between lubrications that the chain is not well lubricated and there is some wear.

 

The only solution is to use a chain lubricator, properly installed of course and adjusted correctly according to travel speed (you need a different flow in city traffic and other in the high way).

 

With proper lubrication chain life will be increased a lot more!

[Guest scrumpymike]

Agreed Stelios!

[Marte 127]

Thanks, Tex! Believe me, I try to keep riding. It helps me in many ways.

I think the goal of O ring chains is to simplify maintenance more than reducing fling, given that oil is still necessary. The workshop manual for the Integra, for example, still recommends applying 80W90 oil in spite of O rings. The user manual does not specified the kind of oil to use though.

My source for the info about racing bikes is my friend David Sanchez, an engineer that works at a team which has just won the SuperStock category and finished 4th in the general classification of the race in Lemans (From his blog http://www.bottpower.com/)

Yesterday, after reading your post, I searched and found an email in which he told me about racing chains not having O rings. Since I'm sure you know what you are talking about, I contacted him again and he has apologised, he was mistaken. The drive chain belongs to a section he is not in charge of. The only category he's not sure about is Moto 3.

I applaud the way you've rescued your chain from an early grave. And your reasoning seems sound, although I suspect that it was the side plates that were seized up, rather than the pins/bushings. Good for you, though.

As to your other examples, without knowing exactly which industrial applications you refer to, I would suspect they are 'high load, low speed' situations as the oil 'fling' from a high speed chain was the reason for the invention of the 'O' rings in the first place.

Racing? Well, all the race bikes I work with use 'X' ring chains. And it's pretty uncommon to see unsealed ones these days. Except, possibly, on certain smaller 'classic' bikes where weight is an absolute premium. Bob Heath, for example, used one on his G50 to keep the weight down. But he was a total obsessive and didn't paint the frame to save the weight of the paint (and now we all do that . ).

Whatever, keep riding, keep smiling, keep posting!

Edited November 18, 2014 by Marte

[Tex 36,817]

Hi Marte, when you do have to replace your chain it'd be most interesting to perform an 'autopsy' on it! You know - pop a few links out and see exactly what lubricant is in there. Hopefully you'll get a lot more use out of it first though!

Cheers,

[Tex 36,817]

Oh, Marte, I should have said - please be sure to pass on my congratulations to David. First SuperStock and fourth overall is a stunning result in any race, doubly so at LeMans. A terrific team effort!

[Marte 127]

I'm curious about the autopsy too!

[Marte 127]

I'll try to further explain my previous post.

Honda and other brands have been recommending 80W90 gear oil to lube the chain for decades now. To my knowledge, the NC700 family were among the fist models in which Honda stop doing so, just mentioning now a lube suitable for O ring chains, including the image of an spray can in the user manual.

Since I'm no friend of lubing sprays, I felt glad to discover that the workshop manual still recommends gear oil as the first option.

I apologise if I'm going off topic, Mike. Also for repetition.