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Brake pad changing - my tips and experience


Guest equesta

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Guest equesta

Hi All,

 

This is my first "long" post on here so apologies in advance if this is boring for some, but thought I'd share my personal experience for what it's worth as there's a lot of different info about brake pads out there.

 

I've done around 5.5k miles on my NC750X and recently noticed that my rear brakes had about 1.5mm left on them. Not many miles I know but these were 5.5k miles of stop-start peak-hour London Circular traffic, so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.

 

As I was researching on how to repace the pads, never had I seen so many conflicting strong opinions on which ones to get - OE/non-OE, sintered vs organic, every brand under the sun, copper grease, don't copper grease, some types will warp your discs while others have the "brake feel" of warm cheese.

 

So after *much* deliberation, I eventually pulled the trigger on a set of EBC Double-H Sintered Brakes (FA496HH rear - and I bought a front set FA196HH as well). 

 

I settled on EBC as they seemed like a good "solid" brand - not too flashy like Brembo, etc (not interested in track days and shaving my discs) or not some unknown Chinese brand with unknown quality. Their pads are made in the USA (their Organic ones are from the UK), and from the review of the latest sintered ones didn't look like they will damage my discs too badly nowadays. Though again, I've had so many conflicting reports from other (non-Honda) forums so I'm never 100%. I didn't go for the OE pads because a) I can't seem to find a reputable source for them and B) they were about double the price and c) I've read bad reviews about them for wearing out quickly (which may be consistent with my case). I think I've left enough of the old pads so I can always swap them back come service/warranty time. :whistle:

 

I had originally ordered the kevlar/organic versions, but when I discovered that the OE pads are in fact sintered, I exchanged them. Full props to MSA Direct who offered really good and quick service for the exchange and were the best price for the 2 sets.

 

Tools I needed were:

  • Torque wrench - I've always been "yeah - tight enough", but I've always wanted a torque wrench to "do it proper". I ended up getting the Halfords Professional 8-60nm one. It's one of the very few purchases from Halfrauds I didn't feel like having a shower afterwards. It's made in England, really accurate (comes with a certificate) and had some really good reviews. Most importantly, it covers the torque range of most items relating to servicing the NC, without having to buy two wrenches - which is actually quite rare.
  • 12mm and 8mm sockets
  • Blue (medium strength) Loctite - to recoat the "ALOC" (loctite already applied) caliper mounting bolts which you are, according to Honda , supposed to buy a new one each time you change the pads. :rolleyes:
  • Some silicone grease
  • Lots of brake cleaner and an old toothbrush
  • Gloves, lots of old newspaper, wipes, covers, whatever your missus' acceptance level is - (it's a pretty dirty job) ...

The task of changing the pads was really straightforward. It was a matter of:

  1. Unscrewing the the pad holding pin,
  2. Unscrewing the rear caliper mounting bolt
  3. Pushing the calipers up and removing the pads
  4. Giving everything a really good clean with an old toothbrush and lots of cleaner.
  5. Install the new pads in its place
  6. Push the calipers back down over the pads (you may need to push in the piston - make sure it's well clean first)
  7. Putting some silicone grease on the end of the pad holding pin and screwing it back in to the right torque setting
  8. Applying loctite on the caliper mounting bolt and screw it back into the right torque setting.

Done. The longest part was getting in there and cleaning it all up.

 

I've also noticed that there was no copper grease applied anywhere, so I didn't apply any to the new pads either to be consistent. Again, a lot of conflicting opinions, but it seems that more recent bikes don't seem to need greasing on pads, so I didn't use it this time.

 

Though I didn't need to replace the front pads, I also took the opportunity to take apart the front pads, clean it out well, inspect it closely and put it all back. Again, similar to above and pretty simple.

 

Finally, I needed to take the bike out somewhere for bit of a test run. "Honey...I need to go for a ride to the bike shop to...um...break-in the new pads that we saved money on by doing myself..." B)

I had expected to get nothing from the rear brakes - but to my surprise they're bedding in nicely already.

 

On a related note, I've noticed on the forum there's some confusion as to what the OE pads are. I had assumed they were organic (and hence why I originally ordered organic pads) as the NC's are built to a price and is certainly not a supersport bike. But I was wrong. On inspecting the front pads, they were definitely sintered - very metallic surface and the backs of them had the model number and a "HH" designation after it. The rear ones are at least semi-sintered- not quite as shiny as the fronts, but definitely had a metallic feel. I attach pictures here for those who may be interested.

 

post-2988-0-38861300-1429380810_thumb.jpg

post-2988-0-04191900-1429380810_thumb.jpg

 

Anyway, hope this helps other people here. I found it so difficult to decide how best to do it as there's so much conflicting information and opinions out there about brake pads!

 

Ride safe.

 

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Guest bonekicker

Dan after going through all the finding out--doing the work yourself--learning--and writing and posting all the great information--I would think You are probably the Expert on this subject and Thanks for sharing this priceless info. :thumbsup:

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Yes, thanks for the post. I'm sure a lot of folks here will appreciate the time and effort that went into it.

  • Like 1
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Juggler

Thanks for sharing. Now I see there are definately mistakes in TRW an Brembo catalogues for 750x.

As for sintered/organic - that metallic look you see on your used pads are metal from brake rotor and not pads compound actually. Just have a look at new OE Honda rear pads.

If your rear braking will significantly improve after breaking in new rear pads, it may happen you'll say goodbye to rear rotor too fast. So be prepared to buy a new rear rotor and new set of plain organic pads. I hope I'm wrong!

Edited by Juggler
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Guest equesta

@Juggler: Just to add even more confusion to the mix. I did a search on the part number on the OE pads in your original post and came up with this:

 

http://www.bike-parts-honda.com/microfiches-recherche_piece-06435-MGS-D31.html

 

Confusingly, the OE brake pads for the NC750X in Russia is used for the NC700X in the UK and didn't list the the NC750X in the UK. I don't have a new OE set to compare them with, but comparing more closely my old pads with your photo, the pad area/shape is different.

 

If anyone could shed light what the Honda part number is for the UK NC750 - that would be great.

 

It's hard to tell from my photo, but I have cleaned it up quite a bit - and it's definitely not organic. It's also got bits of copper and other metal embedded inside it (ie didn't come from the rotor).  

 

At the end of the day, I see the brake rotors as a consumable part so I'm not too worried about wear if it means better braking for me. In fact, I look forward to the challenge of replacing them!

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Guest equesta

Dan after going through all the finding out--doing the work yourself--learning--and writing and posting all the great information--I would think You are probably the Expert on this subject and Thanks for sharing this priceless info. :thumbsup:

 

Thanks Bonekicker. Definitely wouldn't say I'm an expert, just handy with a tool set and always do my research beforehand!

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Guest bonekicker

Dan and that is exactly what a expert is--But not only are you handy with tools and do the required research--you took the time to post all the information you had learnt in a understandable way--and as a member you are partly responsible for making this forum so great-- we do appreciate it very much and please keep sharing and posting   :thumbsup:

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  • 2 months later...
Guest equesta

Update: I now know why Honda recommend ALOC bolts for the rear caliper mounting bolts instead of using Loctite. When applying Loctite on the bolt, unless you insert it back perfectly carefully, a little bit of it will get on the metal sleeve, resulting in the bolt being stuck to the sleeve and hence the boot. Which it turns out is a right pain if you want to clean the calipers at a later date.

 

So for future pain and saving trouble, I'd recommend getting the ALOC bolts (Part no: 90180-MN8-006). They're only about ~£2 each and they get rusty anyway, so good opportunity to change them.

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  • 3 months later...
Dunnster

Update: I now know why Honda recommend ALOC bolts for the rear caliper mounting bolts instead of using Loctite. When applying Loctite on the bolt, unless you insert it back perfectly carefully, a little bit of it will get on the metal sleeve, resulting in the bolt being stuck to the sleeve and hence the boot. Which it turns out is a right pain if you want to clean the calipers at a later date.

 

So for future pain and saving trouble, I'd recommend getting the ALOC bolts (Part no: 90180-MN8-006). They're only about ~£2 each and they get rusty anyway, so good opportunity to change them.

Hi Dan, a quick question, do I need a new ALOC bolt every time I clean the caliper's and inspect the pads?

Regards, Dunnster.

  • Like 1
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Dan, thanks for taking the time to post your experiences.. For my part of I've changed car pads, but not yet done that on a bike! I've yet to take that step, and with the help of posts like yours would approach it with background info in mind...so thanks once again

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  • 4 weeks later...
Guest equesta

Hi Dan, a quick question, do I need a new ALOC bolt every time I clean the caliper's and inspect the pads?

Regards, Dunnster.

Sorry, been away from the forums a while.

No, you don't physically need a new ALOC bolt each time. But if you do apply Loctite to the same bolt, do so very sparingly and at your own risk of the above!

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scoot_to_boot
 
EDIT: The reason why Honda and practically every other OEM use these bolts is that the use of liquid during the assembly process is avoided as much as possible, because it its messy and quite hard to do in a controlled and consistent manner. When I spoke to two Mercedes engineers (one a car designer, one of them in charge of an E-class production line) they ran away in horror at the idea of manually applying loctite in the assembly line.

 

Because a new aloc bolt has a different level of friction in the thread from a cleaned  one with liquid loctite on, you cannot really tell what the correct torque for the reused ALOC caliper bolt is. Furthermore the trouble with the honda caliper bolts is that the specced torque of the bolt (28 or 30 NM off the top of my head) is higher than normal for a typical 8.8 grade M8 steel bolt which is just under 25 NM. 

 

What this boils down to is that you may be weaking the bolt every time you use it, and there is no way to determine whether the bolt is still ok or not. 

 

In practice it appears that practically everyone, and apparently a number of dealers as well re-uses them. At least on my recent service bill - including pad change -, the bolts were not itemized. Probably the most likely mishap is that you may twist the bolt head off.

 

You have to be aware though, that you are using a highly safety relevant part plainly against the recommendations of the engineers who designed it. I have reused aloc bolts myself, but lately I have started wondering whether it is not stupid, given the price

Edited by scoot_to_boot
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Dunnster

Thanks for the replys Dan & scoot_to_boot. I'll order a couple of spare ALOC bolts, only a couple of quid I think.

Regards Dunnster

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  • 3 months later...
Guest Jarrod

So for future pain and saving trouble, I'd recommend getting the ALOC bolts (Part no: 90180-MN8-006). They're only about ~£2 each and they get rusty anyway, so good opportunity to change them.

 

Hi,

Where to buy them?

Thanks

J

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Guest Eddie19

Hi Jarrod, If you go to www.lingshondaparts.com you will find that part number 90180-MN8-006 is listed as costing £3-46. They do a mail order service  but I usually find the part number from the website and buy it from my local dealer. If they haven't got it in stock, it's normally a two date wait (and another journey).

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Guest Jarrod

Hi Jarrod, If you go to www.lingshondaparts.com you will find that part number 90180-MN8-006 is listed as costing £3-46. They do a mail order service  but I usually find the part number from the website and buy it from my local dealer. If they haven't got it in stock, it's normally a two date wait (and another journey).

 

Thanks Eddie

 

The issue I have with my local dealer is that :alien: it is not local.

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  • 4 months later...
bazza

Hi Dan, a quick question, do I need a new ALOC bolt every time I clean the caliper's and inspect the pads?

Regards, Dunnster.

Yes i would like to know this as well. It seems quite a few bolts are listed as "change to new" when you have loosened them.Why?

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Guest sykospain

Bazza - some stress-environment bolts like caliper attachment fixings need replacement because they microscopically stretch when tightened, either on first use or when re-used, at which point they stretch even more.

Cylinder-head bolts for instance should never be re-used - always replaced - for that reason.  When they stretch, they become weaker, so they are replaced with new ones.

Edited by sykospain
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steelhorseuk

I changed all my pads recently and the bolts were in top condition so I just cleaned, reapplied grease as required and reused them tightening to the correct torque settings.

 

I also did my mates Triumph Tiger without a problem, cleaned, greased and reused without an issue.

 

I very much doubt the dealer would renew them either unless they were seriously degraded.

 

-Mark-

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embee

Bazza - some stress-environment bolts like caliper attachment fixings need replacement because they microscopically stretch when tightened, either on first use or when re-used, at which point they stretch even more.

Cylinder-head bolts for instance should never be re-used - always replaced - for that reason.  When they stretch, they become weaker, so they are replaced with new ones.

All (as far as I'm aware) modern engines use "torque to yield" processes for critical fasteners such as con-rods, cylinder heads, main bearings etc, and things like cam sprocket clamping bolts. The reason is that it ensures a consistent maximised clamping load which depends on the bolt sections and the material, but is essentially immune to friction variation. The production processes use electronic power tools which can detect the change in slope of the torque vs angle curve, see for example the point marked on this graph (top right corner of the "box")

torquetoyield_heads.gif

Each fastener is tightened until a certain amount of yield is observed, which defines the clamp load very precisely according to the design of the bolt. The actual torque will be different for each fastener. Most fasteners of this type can be re-used, typically 3 times but depending on the amount of yield it is designed to accommodate. Often a mark is applied to the head for each time it is taken to yield.

 

A similar but simpler method often specified for service where yield point detecting torque wrenches are not available is the "torque+angle" method. This applies a moderate torque to bed the fastener head/abutment faces, then the fastener is tightened a further specified angle. This is determined by test to correspond to the yield point and can be quite accurate. You might see "50Nm+90deg" for example.

 

As can be seen in the graph, using just a torque will give very varied clamping loads depending on the condition of the threads etc (friction). Simple torque figures are usually used in circumstances where it is necessary to avoid breaking the fastener but inevitably it does not ensure consistent clamping loads.

 

Bolts tightened to lower than the yield point (i.e. still in the elastic range) will return to the original length when relaxed, those taken to yield (taken into the plastic range) will exhibit permanent stretch. It can however be perfectly acceptable to re-use these providing the design has allowed for it (material selection, cross sections etc). In any threaded fastener the clamp load is achieved by stretching the fastener, like a strong spring, it's just a question of whether it is kept elastic or permanently stretched.

Edited by embee
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Guest sykospain

Expert info there, Murray - thanks.  The foul-mouthed Beemer expert wrencher Chris Thomas in New Hampshire, "Team Monkey", uses the torque / angle settings for his reassemblies.

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DaveM59

I have never replaced a caliper mounting bolt or pad retainer in my life unless they were so corroded or over tightened I couldn't remove them without damage, nor have I ever used Loctite or for that matter ever owned a bottle of thread lock.

Nip the bolt with 2 fingers on your socket handle, 3 fingers on a ring spanner. Never had one come loose, never been unable to remove one easily. I always coppaslip the bolts, and the rear of the pads in the contact area for the piston or body.

My preference is for HH (sintered) pads from any manufacturer that has a recognised brand on the packaging, which are usually the gold coloured back plates. Green back plates are often the organic types and basic black the standard. I have seen red back plates but I think these were Malossi race pads so best avoided.

Also avoid cheap as chips Chinese manufactured pads as they sometimes only glue the pad material to the plate.

If you look at the photos in the OP post you can see the two holes where the pad material is pressed through the backing as well as glued on so if the glue fails the pad material cannot detach from the backing and you will detect a problem before failure. Glued on pads will simply rip out leaving just the steel backing grinding on the disk. 

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Derek_Mac

  I always thought Honda stated that their caliper mounting bolts must be replaced with new ones is because they pre-treat them with a Loctite type substance which is 'one use only'.

 I reuse the bolts after cleaning them and give them a coating of low strength Loctite (Loctite 222).

 

 Edit: Much the same as Dan does.

Edited by Derek_Mac
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