Engine light occasionally when setting off

[Guest technophebe]

This has happened twice over the last two weeks. Less than a minute after starting and setting off, the engine light comes on. When I pull in and turn the bike off and on again, the light doesn't reappear.

 

It's possible that both times have been in the wet (the second was certainly, I can't remember about the first).

 

*Maybe* I can feel a subtle regular ticking from the engine when idling, but it's faint enough that I can't be sure that it wasn't just always there and that I'm imagining it in my worry!

 

Does this rings any bells with anyone, or does anyone have any advice?

[Mike5100 2,061]

I have had the light come on - and even stay on through 6 on/offs including some riding.  Once I thought it was due to wet.  Another time was straight after an oil change.  I asked the dealer to give me the stored error codes when he did the service and he said there weren't any 

Mike

[DaveM59 1,605]

Just an observation but the majority of faults relevant to the display seem to affect the X model which makes me wonder if it isn't simply damp as the dash is far more exposed to the elements than on the Integra where it's almost impossible to get at.

As the display works on very low voltage the slightest condensation on any of the PCB or other gubbins inside or even across pins in a connector could give rise to odd displays lighting up (or failing to light up).

[embee 7,288]

There are various possible causes. If I read the situation correctly the light comes on with the ignition correctly for system checks, then goes out when you start it, but comes on again after a short time.

 

Either it is a genuine fault or it is a "false" flag, i.e. the ECU thinks there is a fault but actually there isn't.

 

Coming on shortly after a cold start may well be associated with a low voltage, or more precisely the voltage not recovering as expected after the cold start when the battery has delivered the high current for starting. There would usually be a delay in this because it is a known phenomenon and to avoid false flags the system won't usually make the decision until a certain time has elapsed to allow for recovery. If the battery is getting tired combined with colder weather could be enough to delay the recovery enough to flag a fault. Fully charge the battery if possible and see if it continues.

 

First and simplest thing to check is that battery terminals are clean and tight. If possible also check the cleanliness of the main 30A fuse in the starter relay. If you can put a voltmeter directly on the battery and check what the recovery is like after a cold start then even better. Also check the main earthing point at the front left side of the riders seat (I guess this is still on the later bikes?), remove the bolt and check all the tabs are clean.

 

It could be to do with the exhaust oxygen sensor (EGO, or lambda sensor) not feeding back as soon as expected. Guessing, but possible. Feedback should start within about a minute after a cold start so the system will look after this sort of time. The time will be much shorter if the engine is warm, so wouldn't flag a fault. There is an electrical earth connection for the exhaust under the bike just ahead of the silencer, check that. Also the lambda sensor connector if possible, follow the wire from the sensor in the side of the exhaust pipe where it exits the cylinder head.

 

I favour a battery issue as a guess.

[Mike5100 2,061]

When mine did the prolonged fault, it never went off after it's start-up routine.  I suspect damp somewhere that eventually cleared.  BTW if you get your centrestand off you probably have to disconnect the earth wire that Murray mentions.  I found it disconnected after a 'professional' had removed and greased the stand spindle.  Didn't seem to affect the bike though and didn;t give any error messages.

Mike

[Rogue 831]

Same is happening to me fairly regularly, but I suspect it is not a real issue.

In my case it only ever happens in the evening when leaving work. I park in an underground, gated garage and it only ever happens about 5-10% of the time. I start the bike and ride <100 meters to the gate where I have to wait on a small upwards incline for approx 30 seconds for security guard to open the gate. Turning ignition off & on always clears the indication and it never happens under any other circumstances so to be honest I just ignore it (well actually clear it and continue) . I did mention it to Dealer last time bike was serviced and they said nothing logged on the ECU/EMU (whatever the hell it's called)

 

 

[Guest technophebe]

Thanks for the responses guys.

 

Embee that's a wealth of information there, I'll get my knees dirty this weekend!

 

And Rogue it's interesting, your symptoms sound exactly the same as mine, and it's been the evening both times for me too. I'm trying to figure out what the common thread could be though!

Edited January 18, 2017 by technophebe

[Mike5100 2,061]

2 hours ago, technophebe said:

Thanks for the responses guys.

 

Embee that's a wealth of information there, I'll get my knees dirty this weekend!

 

And Rogue it's interesting, your symptoms sound exactly the same as mine, and it's been the evening both times for me too. I'm trying to figure out what the common thread could be though!

If it happens only on Mon Wed and Fri evenings it could be an alert for Corrie starting?

Mike

[Guest technophebe]

Actually I caught it exactly as it happened this morning - the NC revs higher for a minute or so at startup to get the engine warmed up (most fuel injection bikes do this, on a bike with carbs you do it yourself with the choke), and it's as that period ends that the light goes on.

 

So something that's happening as the bike transitions from higher startup revs to normal revs is tripping a warning sensor. I'm wondering whether an ECU reset in the cold weather might be the way to go, based on that.

[Rogue 831]

1 hour ago, technophebe said:

Actually I caught it exactly as it happened this morning - the NC revs higher for a minute or so at startup to get the engine warmed up (most fuel injection bikes do this, on a bike with carbs you do it yourself with the choke), and it's as that period ends that the light goes on.

 

So something that's happening as the bike transitions from higher startup revs to normal revs is tripping a warning sensor. I'm wondering whether an ECU reset in the cold weather might be the way to go, based on that.

 

Yes your description fits what I am seeing. Just after starting engine idling slightly higher (similar to choke as you say) and then say 30-60 seconds later revs drop and light come on.

[embee 7,288]

Worth trying the so-called ECU reset (if it actually does anything, no definitive evidence).

 

Disconnect battery for a while, suggestion is 30mins but less might work.

Engine must be cold.

Reconnect battery.

Start using the button but DO NOT TOUCH THE THROTTLE.

Leave idling until the fan cuts in, usually about 15mins but probably longer if weather is cold. Do not touch the throttle during the running.

Stop the engine USING THE KILL SWITCH. Leave ignition on for another 30sec or so.

Switch off and you're set to go (remember to switch Kill Switch back on!)

 

If this actually works, the theory is that the ECU can learn what the warm up procedure is doing regarding idle speed adjustment and feedback fuelling correction when it goes onto closed loop, so has the potential ability to apply a suitable offset to correct the base setting to mid rfange, but that's not been confirmed to my knowledge. It's free so try it, can't hurt..

 

From what you describe it could be something to do with either the feedback commencement (lambda sensor) or possibly the idle speed controller (idle air valve I think it's referred to as IAV) position. I'm sure there is a procedure described in the manual for doing the throttle body initialisation, which I believe resets the IAV to a reference position for ECU learning purposes, would have to dig that out. If something is slightly out of the expected range it will flag a fault, but on a restart it could just be back in range, depends how it's calibrated and limits set for flags.

Edited January 19, 2017 by embee

[Guest DervMan]

Given the light comes on immediately after the idle drops I wonder if it's related to a drop in battery voltage. I have a battery monitor on mine and it often goes 'yellow' on tickover so there's obviously a drop in alternator output.

[Guest DervMan]

For completeness here's the battery monitor I use. Thoroughly recommended.

 

http://www.that auction site.co.uk/itm/LED-Motorcycle-Battery-Alternator-Charge-monitor-level-indicator-warning-bike-G-/200826330214?hash=item2ec22e9c66:m:mkmYChJxuSeWHHrNu2SCeIw

Edited January 19, 2017 by DervMan

[ste7ios 469]

I really don't like those battery monitors because their level indicators doesn't match to every battery.

 

There are differences depending on battery type & maker...

 

For example Yuasa & Varta  AGM batteries has an OCV (Open Circuit Voltage) slightly higher than other AGM batteries.

 

At 13.0-12.9V they are 100% fully charged, at 12.5V are 50% charged and empty at 12.0V.

 

The problems are starting bellow 50%.

 

The indicator on that device it's ok for conventional wet batteries where their OCV is about 0.2V lower...

 

(All these numbers at 25°C / 77°F. OCV will be lower as temperature decreases and higher when it increases. It can be calculated...)

 

So I prefer just a voltmeter, the numbers, to get the state of charge according to the installed battery user manual... The same for the charging system.

 

In your case, your battery's OCV must between 12.5 - 12.1 V. It's very weak and you should have a red indicator not yellow...

[Rogue 831]

I'd personally like to thank Embee for the great information and suggestions you are posting. As usual this group is a font of useful knowledge and help for those of us who are less able or mechanically inclined.

 

In all honesty it is very likely that I will not actually put any of it into practice right now though. This is due to my laziness and reluctance to have to work on the bike in the freeing cold. no heating in my garage and as it is a stand alone building it is always very cold in winter. For me, at the moment this is a minor annoyance only so will probably wait till better weather to investigate if problem doesn't magically disappear with the better weather that is.

 

Edited January 20, 2017 by Rogue

[Mike5100 2,061]

18 minutes ago, Rogue said:

I'd personally like to thank Embee for the great information and suggestions you are posting. As usual this group is a font of useful knowledge and help for those of us who are less able or mechanically inclined.

 

In all honesty it is very likely that I will not actually put any of it into practice right no wthough. This is due to my laziness and reluctance to have to work on the bike in the freeing cold. no heating in my garage and as it is a stand alone building it is always very cold in winter. For me, at the moment this is a minor annoyance only so will probably wait till better weather to investigate if problem doesn't magically disappear with the better weather

 

+1 to Embee's contributions.

My garage is just like yours - always shows as colder than the outside temperature too.  However this is the best £120 I ever spent (discounted by 50% about 5 years ago) North Face Summit down jacket.

Mike

[Guest DervMan]

22 hours ago, ste7ios said:

I really don't like those battery monitors because their level indicators doesn't match to every battery.

 

There are differences depending on battery type & maker...

 

For example Yuasa & Varta  AGM batteries has an OCV (Open Circuit Voltage) slightly higher than other AGM batteries.

 

At 13.0-12.9V they are 100% fully charged, at 12.5V are 50% charged and empty at 12.0V.

 

The problems are starting bellow 50%.

 

The indicator on that device it's ok for conventional wet batteries where their OCV is about 0.2V lower...

 

(All these numbers at 25°C / 77°F. OCV will be lower as temperature decreases and higher when it increases. It can be calculated...)

 

So I prefer just a voltmeter, the numbers, to get the state of charge according to the installed battery user manual... The same for the charging system.

 

In your case, your battery's OCV must between 12.5 - 12.1 V. It's very weak and you should have a red indicator not yellow...

 

You're missing the point, these simple monitors show you at a glance if the battery is loosing it's capacity as the voltage is being checked in a 'loaded' environment.  Using a volt meter is usually done in a shed/garage when there's no load on the battery. For me they are a cost effective system for early warning of battery failure they are brilliant.

[embee 7,288]

Just for info, not suggesting anyone does this but it may be of interest to some.

 

On my Deauville a standard problem was that you can't see the indicator repeaters in any sunlight, so you get paranoid about pressing the cancel numerous times. As an indicator I fitted one of these Lascar LCD panel meters to the top of the screen. The "needle" is actually an LCD segment so it clicks from one value to the next.

It actually works from 0-1V as a meter, so you need to do some trickery to get it to measure over a suitable range. I have it to show zero when there's 8volts, and full scale at 16V, so 12V is in the middle. I lifted the "ground" to 1V with an IC voltage regulator and put a divider resistor circuit using a trimmer pot for adjustment so it gives 1V out with 8V applied, and 2V out with 16V applied, thus 0V and 1V at the meter input relative to the "ground" for it.

However the trick bit is that it flashes all the segments when it goes over range which attracts attention, so I've arranged a signal from the indicators which put it over range along with a capacitor/resistor to maintain the voltage above the threshold while the indicators flash. Being LCD it is clearly visible in bright sunlight, working as a voltmeter also gives some confidence that the reg/rec is still functioning OK. Strictly speaking it's not waterproof but I have it shielded and sloped backwards so it doesn't really get wet, and it's been fine for 10yrs or so.

It can certainly be reassuring to have a voltmeter on a bike if you have high load items or if the bike is prone to failing reg/recs (as some have been). At least the NC range use decent MOSFET type reg/recs which are as reliable as you get. Simple digital panel meters can be had for a few ££ these days and will read directly, so no need for the palaver I went to!

 

 

[Guest sykospain]

...or even simpler, for an unmissable audible warning that you've dangerously forgotten to cancel your winker...

Buy a pair of 2 snoojit, yes, only 2 snoojits each, of those ubiquitous 12V Chinese winker beepers - one wired in series in the feed to each of the front winker bulbs inside the headlamp binnacle, with the 2 beepers carefully wedged inside there.

Then, even dozy jaywalkers can hear your approach to a corner and so they look round thinking you're a reversing truck.

Item number 122284222317

Kushtie.

Edited January 20, 2017 by sykospain

[ste7ios 469]

1 hour ago, DervMan said:

 

You're missing the point, these simple monitors show you at a glance if the battery is loosing it's capacity as the voltage is being checked in a 'loaded' environment.  Using a volt meter is usually done in a shed/garage when there's no load on the battery. For me they are a cost effective system for early warning of battery failure they are brilliant.

I don't think so... I'm talking about the same functionality you're talking about with a permanent small volt meter, like Koso mini 3: https://www.koso.com.tw/products-detail.php?lang=en&id=885

 

But it will work with any battery type, or different characteristics...

 

Edited January 20, 2017 by ste7ios

[hypnotic 31]

On 18/01/2017 at 09:55, technophebe said:

This has happened twice over the last two weeks. Less than a minute after starting and setting off, the engine light comes on. When I pull in and turn the bike off and on again, the light doesn't reappear.

 

It's possible that both times have been in the wet (the second was certainly, I can't remember about the first).

 

*Maybe* I can feel a subtle regular ticking from the engine when idling, but it's faint enough that I can't be sure that it wasn't just always there and that I'm imagining it in my worry!

 

Does this rings any bells with anyone, or does anyone have any advice?

Maybe a bit sill comparison but on my 110cc scooter this is happening when Im using 95 octane fuel. Once I started using 98 octane it disappeared for good. I know this is related as after a few months I tested again and used 95 octane, after the 3rd fill up the check engine light went on and off after I switched the fuel.

[Guest epsonix]

@technophebe, I had random check engine light popping on a few times. Before I contacted dealer on this I found out that there was recall on faulty clock/counter/trip computer series. Surely it was case for 750X from beginning of production (mine was manufactured in 2014). It is possible to check on Honda UK website your VIN, and see if it qualifies for any FOC recalls (the link should be also somewhere on this forum if you can't find it on Honda website).

 

It was replaced in mid 2015, and no single check engine light on since then.

Edited February 7, 2017 by epsonix

[Guest technophebe]

53 minutes ago, epsonix said:

@technophebe, I had random check engine light popping on a few times. Before I contacted dealer on this I found out that there was recall on faulty clock/counter/trip computer series. Surely it was case for 750X from beginning of production (mine was manufactured in 2014). It is possible to check on Honda UK website your VIN, and see if it qualifies for any FOC recalls (the link should be also somewhere on this forum if you can't find it on Honda website).

 

It was replaced in mid 2015, and no single check engine light on since then.

 

Thanks for that Epsonix, I went out and took a record of my VIN (something which I should have done when I got the bike in 2015), no recalls listed but that's good to know anyway.

 

It happened a couple of times during the cold weather and hasn't happened again, and my pokings and proddings have uncovered no obvious problems, so I'm inclined to chalk it up to "one of those things" at this point