Horn/Shift button on DCT

[Rocker66 34,462]

1 minute ago, SteveThackery said:

 

To be honest they don't vary that much at all.  Pretty well every modern bike has a digital speedo and "analogue" tacho.  Sometimes we get analogue speed indication or digital engine rpm.  But that is all.  They all have a blue mainbeam warning, a flashing indicator warning, and all the other mandatory safety-related warning indicators.  It's only the secondary stuff where the manufacturer can innovate new instrument layouts.

We have 4 Honda’s in the garage and only 2 have similar instrument layouts. Yes all 4 are current models

 

 

I think the reason people are still "wailing" about it is because Honda have failed to get widespread adoption of their new layout.  Unlike the indicator stalks in cars, where there was a transition period and then standardisation, there is no indication of transition or standardisation when it comes to these two handlebar switches.  The opposite seems to be true - most people other than Honda think it's a stupid idea and haven't adopted it.  Hence the ongoing complaints.

 

The answer is simple if you don’t like what Honda produce buy something else. I don’t think that you will find BMW and HD switches will confirm to your regimented idea of ow they should be so that probably rules them out as well.

 

[MatBin 5,089]

8 minutes ago, SteveThackery said:

 

Correct, indeed, that seems to be why they did it.  But does that excuse them creating a non-standard switch layout?  I think standardisation of safety-related controls is important (think what driving a car would be like if the pedals and stalks were arranged however the manufacturer wanted).  

 

I think Honda should have looked for another way to provide the paddles functionality.  The obvious place would be to use a gear lever in the normal place, but just operating a pair of switches, and leave the handlebar layout unchanged.

Looking at the switchgear, if the hooter had stayed in the lower position the paddle could be where the current hooter button is and both would have been easy to operate.

In "panic" mode it is so easy to revert to muscle memory and change down. 

BMW switchgear was equally daft when they had 2 indicator switches (on my K75) which after 4 years of ownership and many miles still occasionally caught me out. It's an unsafe redesign.

Steve I agree handlebar layout should be standard as per cars, that would hardly make all bikes identical in terms of character etc.

You can get a foot change lever for the NC at an extra cost but that doesn't "solve" the hooter switch position.

I've ridden Brit bikes with right foot change, didn't find swapping over an issue, but after years of riding bikes with lower left hooter button on virtually all of my bikes since 1971 it seems very strange that this "standard" is now subject to manufacturer's whim, where's the start button, bottom right, is that going to change too.

Your car analogy is spot on.

[SteveThackery 3,090]

1 minute ago, Rocker66 said:

The answer is simple if you don’t like what Honda produce buy something else. I don’t think that you will find BMW and HD switches will confirm to your regimented idea of ow they should be so that probably rules them out as well.

 

Well, I did buy something else!  Out of interest, the F800GT does indeed conform with all other common motorcycles in its basic control layouts.  And people have been arguing the merits of BMW's three-button system for as long as it has existed, which does indeed suggest there is a problem with it.

[Rocker66 34,462]

1 minute ago, SteveThackery said:

 

Well, I did buy something else!  Out of interest, the F800GT does indeed conform with all other common motorcycles in its basic control layouts.  And people have been arguing the merits of BMW's three-button system for as long as it has existed, which does indeed suggest there is a problem with it.

People have been arguing many different aspects of motorcycle design for many years as everybody has their own idea of what makes the perfect motorcycle as can seen by many threads on here.  Personally the switch gear that I liked best on all my bikes was on my R75/5  but you would probably consider it completely wrong.

 

[SteveThackery 3,090]

9 minutes ago, Rocker66 said:

We have 4 Honda’s in the garage and only 2 have similar instrument layouts.

 

Just a little aside: you are moving the goalposts.  This discussion is about safety-related control layout.

[SteveThackery 3,090]

Just now, Rocker66 said:

Personally the switch gear that I liked best on all my bikes was on my R75/5  but you would probably consider it completely wrong.

 

Personally I prefer the old British positions for the indicator and wiper stalks in cars, but I'm willing to suck that up because I understand the importance of standardising their layout.

Rocker, I bet you accidentally scrawked the wipers across a dry, dusty windscreen back in the day when you intended to indicate right.  Everybody in that era did it - it was a standing joke.

[Rocker66 34,462]

3 minutes ago, SteveThackery said:

 

Personally I prefer the old British positions for the indicator and wiper stalks in cars, but I'm willing to suck that up because I understand the importance of standardising their layout.

Rocker, I bet you accidentally scrawked the wipers across a dry, dusty windscreen back in the day when you intended to indicate right.  Everybody in that era did it - it was a standing joke.

[Rocker66 34,462]

Just now, Rocker66 said:

5 minutes ago, SteveThackery said:

 

Personally I prefer the old British positions for the indicator and wiper stalks in cars, but I'm willing to suck that up because I understand the importance of standardising their layout.

Rocker, I bet you accidentally scrawked the wipers across a dry, dusty windscreen back in the day when you intended to indicate right.  Everybody in that era did it - it was a standing joke.

Well that’s one bet that you have lost as I can 100% assure that I have never done so. This probably because I don’t drive.

Anyway I’m off t have a rant because not all Honda’s have their hazard warning light switches in exactly the same place and not all bikes have trigger style switches to flash the headlight. Two things that mean the world is doomed😀😀

[Griff 1,556]

55 minutes ago, SteveThackery said:

 

Correct, indeed, that seems to be why they did it.  But does that excuse them creating a non-standard switch layout?  I think standardisation of safety-related controls is important (think what driving a car would be like if the pedals and stalks were arranged however the manufacturer wanted).  

 

I think Honda should have looked for another way to provide the paddles functionality.  The obvious place would be to use a gear lever in the normal place, but just operating a pair of switches, and leave the handlebar layout unchanged.

 

Totally agree. 

[Rocker66 34,462]

I’m really surprised that Honda have survived as a successful motorcycle manufacturer for so long as apparently judging by some of the comments on here they know very little about designing motorcycles compared to people who are not even in the industry.😀😀

[ChrisCB 6,672]

21 minutes ago, Rocker66 said:

I’m really surprised that Honda have survived as a successful motorcycle manufacturer for so long as apparently judging by some of the comments on here they know very little about designing motorcycles compared to people who are not even in the industry.😀😀

And Honda still sell in the region of 10,000 more units per year than any other manufacturer in UK sales, 40% are DCT where a model has that option, so not really a problem for most.

[Rocker66 34,462]

35 minutes ago, Chris750 said:

And Honda still sell in the region of 10,000 more units per year than any other manufacturer in UK sales, 40% are DCT where a model has that option, so not really a problem for most.

Exactly.

[MatBin 5,089]

51 minutes ago, Chris750 said:

And Honda still sell in the region of 10,000 more units per year than any other manufacturer in UK sales, 40% are DCT where a model has that option, so not really a problem for most.

I started this off asking if anyone had swapped the wires over as a preferred way of finding the horn button in an emergency but it's wandered off to discuss if Honda know how to design a bike, obviously they do and I am not about to tell a massively successful corporation how to design their bikes. However nothing is perfect and perhaps the switch gear could be better, as could the brakes, the seat, the hooter, the headlight, the screen but nowhere in those discussions did I see any comments about, buy something else if you don't like it or so you can design a bike better than Honda even though you don't work in the industry.

Not the friendliest comments but then I'm not that surprised.

[Rocker66 34,462]

10 minutes ago, MatBin said:

I started this off asking if anyone had swapped the wires over as a preferred way of finding the horn button in an emergency but it's wandered off to discuss if Honda know how to design a bike, obviously they do and I am not about to tell a massively successful corporation how to design their bikes. However nothing is perfect and perhaps the switch gear could be better, as could the brakes, the seat, the hooter, the headlight, the screen but nowhere in those discussions did I see any comments about, buy something else if you don't like it or so you can design a bike better than Honda even though you don't work in the industry.

Not the friendliest comments but then I'm not that surprised.

My comments were not aimed at your question about swapping the wires but at those that were suggesting that Honda were wrong to design it that way.

When I bought the Crossrunner I really wanted the VFR800 but on testing it I found that I found the riding position uncomfortable although I loved everything else about it so rather than buy it then moan about it I bought something else.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Rocker66

[ChrisCB 6,672]

18 minutes ago, MatBin said:

I started this off asking if anyone had swapped the wires over

 

So it looks like the answer is no.

Try it yourself and let us know. 

[MatBin 5,089]

18 minutes ago, Chris750 said:

 

So it looks like the answer is no.

Try it yourself and let us know. 

Not sure I am that brave but I might give the dealer a call.

[bazza 3,629]

my Merc is automatic and the gear lever is a stalk on the right side-up for reverse,down for forward-push in for PARK.easy benough except the VW RH stalk is the wipers- so i can put the Merc into neutral to turn wipers on -which are on the left lever.

The joy of having too many vehicles!

[Haggard Rider 1,087]

Oh yes, the indicator/horn positions are different between my previous CB1100 and current NC750S - fancy that!

 

(actually prefer it á la NC, falls more naturally to thumb for me, not that it was unnatural on the 1100, there again, I'm only a noob so have no decades long muscle memory to overcome)

 

((Just returned our Merc at end of lease and have bought for cash money a manual 2013 VW - already forgotten what driving the Merc was like, but do remember hitting the Cruise controls rather than the indicator lever a few times.))

[SteveThackery 3,090]

10 hours ago, Rocker66 said:

I’m really surprised that Honda have survived as a successful motorcycle manufacturer for so long as apparently judging by some of the comments on here they know very little about designing motorcycles compared to people who are not even in the industry.😀😀

 

What a silly, bitter comment.  Nobody here has said Honda know "very little" about designing motorcycles.  Nobody has said people here know more about designing motorcycles than Honda.  What we've said is that - in our opinion - they made a mistake with this particular design decision.  

 

Can you think of a manufacturer who hasn't made the occasional mistake?

[SteveThackery 3,090]

9 hours ago, MatBin said:

.........so you can design a bike better than Honda even though you don't work in the industry.

Not the friendliest comments but then I'm not that surprised.

 

No, they aren't the friendliest comments, and not even remotely constructive.  Don't worry, Rocker frequently gets like this.  You'll get used to him.

[Jamesc 3,655]

Following this discussion...my bike's a manual but on the way into work this morning I had a go at returning to covering the horn button after each use of the clutch, I need to build up a bit of memory as I got it about half the time (other times I found the indicators)

 

Then pulled I pulled up alongside a TVS Stryker 125 no less outside the local McD's & notice the horn button was larger + appeared easier to jab if needed quickly. Horn button envy 😆

 

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Jamesco

[Rocker66 34,462]

8 hours ago, SteveThackery said:

 

No, they aren't the friendliest comments, and not even remotely constructive.  Don't worry, Rocker frequently gets like this.  You'll get used to him.

Did nobody spot the emojis indicating that it was a light hearted comment????

[SteveThackery 3,090]

3 minutes ago, Rocker66 said:

Did nobody spot the emojis indicating that it was a light hearted comment????

 

Har har.  We know you, Rocker.

[Rocker66 34,462]

1 minute ago, SteveThackery said:

 

Har har.  We know you, Rocker.

How else am I supposed to indicate a light hearted tongue  in cheek comment as unlike when talking you can’t indicate it by tone in print.?

[ChrisCB 6,672]

On 25/08/2020 at 08:21, MatBin said:

After a million years on bikes my left thumb operates the hooter on the lowest rocker switch on the left hand cluster, unfortunately Honda decided to put a gear shift paddle switch there and the hooter button further up the cluster.

Looking at the wiring diagram it doesn't look to difficult to swap the wires over, anyone done this.

Or come up with a cunning way to hit the hooter instead if changing gear (down) when trying to alert a dozen car driver/pedestrian?

 

I took a bit of time to look at the current flow diagram, the horn switch is conventional as in a 12v feed in and a 12v out when you press the switch, simples, however the down shift button shares a  possible 5v feed or earth  with the upshift button from the controller, this yellow/red wire goes to a junction box with 10 wires of the same colour, as these wires go to all the sensors associated with DCT I'm guessing this is the common 5v supply. It could be done but not just swapping wires out of a common block, anything is possible but you would have to be very careful you got the switching integrity correct.