E5 to E10 - Concerns?

[MatBin 5,080]

Later in the year I read the ethanol percentage in petrol is proposed to be  going from 5 to 10, shouldn't be a problem for fairly recent bikes, Honda are stating anything post '93 should be ok. Other manufacturers are saying different things. Two major issues I read,

1 - ethanol is hygroscopic and E10 absorbs more water which can separate in a shorter time so winter lay ups might cause an issue as E10 is more likely to cause a fuelling issue after lay up.

2 - some plastic tanks don't like it, again not an issue for an NC, but other manufacturers?

Minor issues,

Some plastics/rubber can melt on exposure to E10.

Carbed bikes might not like E10, more so than E5 as their fuel systems aren't designed for it.

Plastic fuel tanks can swell with E10, Triumphs used to have this issue, not sure if it was fuel related, but one of mine definitely swelled and it was a permanent swell too, which made removal and refitting a nightmare.

 

Anyone else worried, unaware, couldn't give a toss?

[Tonyj 6,907]

It is an issue with older bikes , caused havoc to a friends 900 fe . They had to get new/secondhand  carbs and replace a lot of rubber bits to get it running and the petrol tank rusted through , which to be fair is a maintenance issue and ducati problem but it was aided in part by the fuel additives he said after stripping out all the bits, maybe the term use it or lose it springs to mind. If it’s left then this happens but what if happens while you are using it ?

[jeremyr62 2,537]

We have had it Ireland for years. Never had an issue with it, fuel injected or carbs. As long as you keep (steel) tanks full or completely empty during storage then it won't cause corrosion issues. (Which has always been the case anyway, even with ethanol free fuels).

Edited April 23, 2021 by jeremyr62
Clarification

[MatBin 5,080]

1 hour ago, jeremyr62 said:

We have had it Ireland for years. Never had an issue with it, fuel injected or carbs. As long as you keep (steel) tanks full or completely empty during storage then it won't cause corrosion issues. (Which has always been the case anyway, even with ethanol free fuels).

Is that E10? AIUI E5 isn't anywhere near as much a problem as E10. Obviously we have had E5 here for a while too.

Edited April 23, 2021 by MatBin

[jeremyr62 2,537]

E10. A few years at least.

Edited April 23, 2021 by jeremyr62

[Empty_Ten 441]

I’m pretty sure my NC has a sticker on it saying suitable for E10.

 

I’m not overly worried as it gets frequent use.  But for the MT10, or if I know the NC will be laid up for more than a few weeks, I’ll probably stick in the premium stuff before hand.   One of the big petrol companies, I think it’s Esso’s premium petrol has really low ethanol or May even be ethanol free?  
 

 

 

 

[Gringo 5,060]

This is worrying. Should I be concerned for my '76 CB250G5 and '79 R100T? Is it just a case of emptying the tank during Winter lay up or prolonged lack of use?

[MatBin 5,080]

2 minutes ago, Gringo said:

This is worrying. Should I be concerned for my '76 CB250G5 and '79 R100T? Is it just a case of emptying the tank during Winter lay up or prolonged lack of use?

Both I think, plus as above E10 is more corrosive to rubber and some plastics, according to Bennett's web site, so could attack fuel lines etc not designed for this increased percentage of ethanol. Seems the Govt have only considered cars.

[Johnnie Mototrans 2,742]

21 minutes ago, Gringo said:

This is worrying. Should I be concerned for my '76 CB250G5 and '79 R100T? Is it just a case of emptying the tank during Winter lay up or prolonged lack of use?

 

If you use it regularly no. Tho that is worrying take on its effect on old rubber parts.

But, yes. If parked up for a prolonged period.

In your tank the ethanol sucks in moisture from the atmosphere.

It then separates into layers which leaves petrol at the top, alcohol in the middle and a couple of millimetres of water rusting through the bottom of your tank.

If your tank has been coated internally with sealant it is entirely likely that this will break down allowing the the tank to start rusting and leaking again and blocking fuel lines, filters and carbs.

Modern fuel left in carbs turns to a toffee like creosote sort of coating once the water has separated and corroded some vital bits.

I have several old bikes and have experienced all of the above.

It is a regular topic in classic circles with people going to the lengths of treating petrol to remove the ethanol.

 

You can of course drain the tank and run the bike until the carbs are empty when laying it up over winter.

However we all think we will do one more run, life takes over and suddenly a couple of years have passed.

[trisaki 2,029]

It will be more of a problem  if they increase  again as most jap bikes can handle  e10 but warn against  anything  higher 

[Gringo 5,060]

When does this E10 start entering the UK pumps or is it already here? The G5 is used semi regularly but the R100T hasn't been out for a couple of months. 

 

EDIT: Just re read the title topic....later in the year. Doh!

Edited April 23, 2021 by Gringo

[jeremyr62 2,537]

54 minutes ago, Empty_Ten said:

I think it’s Esso’s premium petrol has really low ethanol or May even be ethanol free?  

It says it is E5 but I think it depends on which refinery supplies it. I did read in some areas of the UK it is ethanol free (for now).

 

[jeremyr62 2,537]

32 minutes ago, Johnnie Mototrans said:

In your tank the ethanol sucks in moisture from the atmosphere.

Not really. Ethanol is hygroscopic but not aggressively. The water collecting from condensation would be orders of magnitude worse, hence keep your tanks full whenever possible.

[Andy m 23,468]

2 hours ago, Gringo said:

This is worrying. Should I be concerned for my '76 CB250G5 and '79 R100T? Is it just a case of emptying the tank during Winter lay up or prolonged lack of use?

 

I found the CL350 certainly runs better on Super Unleaded. My carb settings are standard, so it might be possible to tune it better for E5 or E10, but as a starting point I'm using Super until any other issues are dialed out.

 

Floats and bits of rubber are just something to deal with on classics so long as they are still available. I'm half lucky, my tank while not rust free is untouched. Pre-ethanol coatings are a bigger problem than leaks. I might get it lined when the situation is clearer. 

 

I will always drain a tank in winter. Chances are it'll be off for a bit of deep cleaning of TLC, so it is drained and sprayed inside with WD40. 

 

FI bikes are a different game, if they won't start in March just syphon some into the wife's car and fill with fresh. I ride the CB all year, so lockdown **** permitting its always fresh. 

 

Andy

[Slowboy 20,347]

18 hours ago, MatBin said:

Anyone else worried, unaware, couldn't give a toss?

Not wishing to be rude, but put me down for the second choice. 😇

[Xactly 5,338]

Amal have introduced “stay up” floats because ethanol attacks the plastic ones. BMW R1100RS and earlier R1100GS are known to have issues with swelling when E10 is used, as do Hinckley Triumphs with plastic tanks. Fibreglass tanks eg original RE CGT, BSA Barracuda and early Starfire will dissolve in E10. A lot of classic bike owners are having to replace tank linings put in to cure pinhole leaks with ethanol proof ones as ethanol attacks the original stuff. A pig of a job to remove the lining, apparently.  RE UCE models up to a certain year (my guess is Euro IV models) suffer the fuel level indicator float dissolving in E10 (a well-known issue on Yankee RE forums). Yes, lovely stuff, E10 and to me nothing more than an ill-conceived political knee-jerk reaction to be seen to be doing something about global warming.

Running-wise EFI bikes will cope because the O2 sensor auto-corrects mixture ( unless of course the owner hasn’t disabled it or stuck in a resistor to fool the ECU into thinking that the richer mixture is normal....With a carb, if you’ve set it up to run nicely on unleaded then put E10 in it it’ll likely run a bit weak. This is because the Air/Fuel Ratio (stoichmetric) of petrol is something like 14, whereas that for ethanol is more like 8 or 9 (I forget precise figures now), so obviously having 10% of each gallon of fuel as ethanol isn’t going to burn as well as 100% petrol if that is what the carb is set up for. So if you have a carb engined bike my advice would be to not mix and match but set it up to run on your chosen brew.

 I have been using super for some time, not for its higher octane but because it has, at most, 5% ethanol if not none. To some extent it depends on which refinery it comes from and also which brand. You can put supermarket ordinary fuel in your pride and joy but I won’t, unless I have no choice. It’s true it all comes from the same refineries as that used by eg Shell, but the tanker drivers have smart cards that add in additives or not, according to a friend of mine who had a senior position at Total before he retired.

[MatBin 5,080]

2 hours ago, slowboy said:

Not wishing to be rude, but put me down for the second choice. 😇

Not third?

[Slowboy 20,347]

1 hour ago, MatBin said:

Not third?

Okay, put me down for that now the second choice has become moot.....😂

[SteveThackery 3,090]

13 hours ago, Xactly said:

RE UCE models up to a certain year (my guess is Euro IV models) suffer the fuel level indicator float dissolving in E10 (a well-known issue on Yankee RE forums).

 

They dissolved in E5, as well.  Mine ended up as a green slime.

[ChrisCB 6,652]

20 minutes ago, SteveThackery said:

 

They dissolved in E5, as well.  Mine ended up as a green slime.

We had a similar problem in the late 70's early 80's on Austin Rover cars that were run on 5 star fuel!!

[Johnnie Mototrans 2,742]

If we all agree to drink more.

There will be less alcohol available.

And they will have to fill the extra 5-10% with something else.

Maybe petrol?

[Rocker66 34,373]

4 hours ago, Johnnie Mototrans said:

If we all agree to drink more.

There will be less alcohol available.

And they will have to fill the extra 5-10% with something else.

Maybe petrol?

Yes please all drink more beer as us Marmite lovers really need you to

[Johnnie Mototrans 2,742]

Rocker. We might be onto something here.

A lot of brewing and distilling by products are used as cattle feed.

So that takes care of the carnivores, cheese mongers, yoghurt devotees and as you now point out the Marmite sub group.

I like most brewed and distilled stuff along with almost all viniculture.

By my count that makes it a win,win,win,win,win.

However, I reckon I used about 10 litres of fuel yesterday.

For this to work I would need to consume a litre of spirits before I can go out again.

Or can we offset my winter lockdown drink problem against some decent 100% hydrocarbon fuel for the summer months?

 

[embattle 332]

On 23/04/2021 at 08:45, Empty_Ten said:

I’m pretty sure my NC has a sticker on it saying suitable for E10.

 

I’m not overly worried as it gets frequent use.  But for the MT10, or if I know the NC will be laid up for more than a few weeks, I’ll probably stick in the premium stuff before hand.   One of the big petrol companies, I think it’s Esso’s premium petrol has really low ethanol or May even be ethanol free?  
 

 

 

 

 

My 2019 Integra has the E10 sticker on it so I'm generally unconcerned, I'm only slightly concerned about a drop in mpg.

Edited April 24, 2021 by embattle

[r1speedyrider 8]

I filled up my 1999 R1 with Sainsburys fuel the other day and it only had E10, I'm now a little concerned as its laid up indefinitely with tank and carbs drained as best as I could with a syphon and running the engine.