DCT clutch

[Steve Case 955]

Stupid question but is the same DCT clutch carried over to the new model?

I have a specific reason for asking.

[outrunner 4,457]

I don't really know, but I see no reason for them to change the clutches on newer models as the engine is basically the same design just with a few more bhp and loads more electronic gubbins to "improve" the riding experience.

 

Andy.

[Egg on Leggs 113]

Check the part numbers for each year you wish to compare.

 

CLUTCH (NC750XD) for Honda NC 750 X DCT 2023 # HONDA Motorcycles & ATVS Genuine Spare Parts Catalog (bike-parts-honda.com)

[Steve Case 955]

Yup same clutch packs.

I suddenly had the thought if they had been changed in 2019 then they would become unavailable after 2029.

[Steve Case 955]

Actually real problem may be cost prob be around £800 in 6 years.

[Slowboy 20,532]

10 hours ago, Steve Case said:

Yup same clutch packs.

I suddenly had the thought if they had been changed in 2019 then they would become unavailable after 2029.

Why? Has an announcement been made?

[Andy m 23,588]

10 hours ago, Steve Case said:

Yup same clutch packs.

I suddenly had the thought if they had been changed in 2019 then they would become unavailable after 2029.

The 10 year legislation applies only to automotive parts. Motorcycles are consumer goods according to the Over Empire's burocracy. Honda could discontinue these parts tomorrow. If you have a problem they'll suggest you sue them and include an invite to the legal department's intern's retirement do. We aren't frightened of regulators until you start with say water pumps for a Ford Focus numbers.

 

In reality it doesn't work like that. At some point they will cease production of new engines. On EU only models it will be well before 2030, on world models who knows). You project a product cycle for spares based on supporting warranty on the last vehicle produced, an ever declining number of vehicles, declining use of dealers and probably a peak from independent parts suppliers at about the point new production ceased. You have your own suppliers looking at the same projected lifetime sales in competition with you. Silly prices encourage your own suppliers, independents and knock off clowns to join the party and under cut you. The older the vehicles the less attractive genuine spares. On say a brake lever you just walk away, enough stock for warranty then get out of the rat fight for piddly little amounts of business.

 

You maximise the profits by whacking the prices up as the last warranty claims are made. When you own the last stock of say genuine 1998 Fireblade fairing panels you really whack the prices up. When the spare costs 51% of the value of the machine, how many will scrap it?

 

It's a computer model job to try and predict what Honda will do with the NC clutch. 

 

Why worry?

 

Andy

 

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Andy m

[Andy131 737]

What 10 year legislation?

The way that I understand it is that it is a voluntary code that some, and only some, manufacturers sign up to.

I am thinking MG (Shanghai International Automotive Company) here, We bought two 6 month old MG3s with SatNavs, the SatNavs both developed a millennium bug, where the date resets back to 1999.  Took the cars back as they were still under warranty - sorry sir, they don't make that part anymore and it can't be updated.  This is for cars under warranty so not even 5 years old.  MG6, brilliant car for the price, available new up to 2016, some brake parts are no longer available, meaning you have to get inventive with the brake system or scrap the car.

[Andy m 23,588]

An EU court ruled many years ago that the consumer should expect car parts to be available up to 10 years from purchase. It may well have been watered down to a code of conduct to duck a firm ruling. It's generally assumed to apply in all the automotive companies I've worked for even if only as a risk. EC98/71 is the starting point but then you need a lawyer for each states law. France is toughest.

 

Enforcement is down to the individual though. You'd need a class action with a potential for over £10M and enough backing to be in court for the fifteen years it'll take.

 

The Chinese are of course fully able to correctly answer the question "You and who's Army?"

 

What brake parts? The normal model is for the supplier (Brembo, BOSCH etc.) to be allowed to compete under their own name at a given point. If enough vehicles exist a fully independent supplier will reverse engineer and provide another source.

 

Andy

Edited August 5, 2023 by Andy m

[Xactly 5,437]

IIRC it’s the same with warranties and the use of third parties to service vehicles under warranty. The legislation doesn’t apply to motorcycles and never has.

[Steve Case 955]

What are you on about all products must be supported for 7 years after discontinued. White goods had some kind of weasel deal as did automotive but pretty sure thats ended.

Hondas boast is they continue support for 10 years, not sure how true that is.

Not sure on who enforces or whos legislation, i will find out.

[Steve Case 955]

This is not right to repair or warranty term or similar nor the eu's strange and unworkable parts availibilty legislation.

It dates back about a decade from memory.

As i say i will find the scope and introduction info. I do know it works in our favour as it stops manufacturers stopping a product and spares supply at the same time or shortly after.

[Steve Case 955]

Holy batshit thats a minefield, had to ask chat gtp in the end. I believe its the consumer goods act but that was 6 years and we support for 7 years and honda 10 so i cannot be sure.

Please keep in mind consumer goods act was EU wide and we still abide by that.

[Xactly 5,437]

Largely irrelevant if you have a Moto Guzzi anyway - spares take ten years to get here…..😊

[Andy131 737]

The case of MG6 brakes was in a magazine about 12 months ago - Car mechanics if memory serves me right, they reported that a perfectly good car was scrapped after it failed the MOT and no-one including the importer could get replacement parts.

I design industrial control systems and write the software for a living / hobby.  I use Programmable Logic Controllers (small computers) to control the plant, these can be VERY expensive for what is tiny computing power - think £4k for something with 1Mb of memory and 5Mb of program storage, with no screen or keyboard.  But Siemens guarantee that they will have spares available for 10 years after final production, often 15 years for refurbished stock. 

Anyway a customer asked me to do a job using a trendy Arduino based PLC, against my better judgement I did.  2 years later he had a problem, an output had failed, trendy PLC was no longer available, and the replacement used a different version of the software, requiring a rewrite which cost more than the hardware saving.

 

It's the chips that are going to be a problem.  Years gone by a chip had a lifespan of say 5 - 7 years, so you continued to produce them for another couple.  Now your competitor has something better in 12 months and you are continually playing catchup - who doesn't want the latest fastest processor.  Problem being production life is more like half what it was, so how do vehicle manufacturers source spares when the chips are no longer available?

 

[Andy m 23,588]

12 hours ago, Xactly said:

Largely irrelevant if you have a Moto Guzzi anyway - spares take ten years to get here…..😊

Yep, currently on the EBC waiting list for stock of the front disc. In anticipation of the MOT in October '24. 

 

Totally correct on the processors. Automotive ECU'S require component approvals and they need winter testing, EMC chambers etc. No one cares if your brakes or FI runs a fraction slower than it might, the mechanical parts are the limit. When the J-i-T house of cards collapsed during the plague the chip makers went totally over to flashy stuff for phones and gaming stations. They just stopped making chips to a ten year old spec. We can use the new ones, but the changeover takes a year. Result, no spares for 18 months because the first priority is stuff that's contracted, not demand that occurs randomly as idiots get busy with jet washes and welding sets.

 

Andy

[Steve Case 955]

On 05/08/2023 at 20:09, Andy131 said:

design industrial control systems and write the software for a living / hobby.  I use Programmable Logic Controller

Hi Andy,

I run the warranty and repairs for Mitsi automation systems in Hatfield. So see PLCs and and all the other hardware all the time.

The FX range is normally run for 10years and 7 years support with 3 years overlap between outgoing and incoming models.

The modular units appear to run 17 to 20 years and then 7 years support with an overlap of around 6 to 8 years.

Don't ask me why these numbers thats up to the Japs and they are batshit crazy.

[Steve Case 955]

On the chip obsolesence Mitsi make a lot of their own chips so its all internal, however they buy in huge amounts of chips and to get round change in design and form they generally bring out a new update model thats backwards compatible but has updated functionality and and a letter on the end of the name such as N to show its an updated version.

Seems to work fine.