ABS Ring Rust Warning

[FurstyFerret 65]

**WARNING** DO NOT powder coat the ABS ring. 

There is no margin for anything other than a flawless - not just professional - job.

Had mine done as was getting other parts done also and it was ever so slightly thicker at the back of two of the bolt holes (post investigation as to what had gone on).

The result was a smoked speed sensor after literally a few hundred yards. 

[davebike 943]

As a pro I thort everyone knew the powdr coat was thicker than paint!

Yes this in one I seen  luckerly we were asked to fit the ring and were able to clean off enough from the wheel side for it to work

Alsoseen disk lock dammage bend the ABS ring and then riding the bike destroyed the sensor so cheak wheel is free to ture after any work or dammage !

 

[Andy m 23,546]

Wasn't there another thread on this?

 

The ABS sensor contains about 100m of wire to form the coil, so you can imagine how thin it is. The fixed types (commercial ones float on a spring bush) are therefore sensitive to anything hitting them. If the air gap is over 0.5mm or choked with anything less conductive than air the signal starts to go.

 

Maybe I've worked with other people money for so long I've got used to it, but I really struggle with why you would try to redesign a system you have limited knowledge of to save a fly-**** component like a polewheel. They are passivated at great expense because paint and powder don't work. They unbolt and are sold as spares because passivation has a limited life. It's all been thought out. If Ford or BMW could design a plastic one to save tuppence on hire fleets they would. Up there with spending hundreds to keep chains alive I guess, it's mechanical so there is this urge not to consume it. Not as silly as re-cutting tyres, dressing brakes and clutches, reboring master cylinders etc.

 

Andy

[Foxy 4,348]

1 hour ago, Andy m said:

Not as silly as re-cutting tyres, dressing brakes and clutches, reboring master cylinders etc.

 

Sounds a bit like that silly New Zealander Burt Munro.

[jeremyr62 2,560]

Not the same but related, on my VFR1200 DCT I was changing the fork seals so the front wheel had to come out. After doing the seals, I put the wheel back in and went for a shakedown ride. DCT would not change out of first gear and the ABS light was on solid. Oh dear. What have I done now. Everything looked OK as far as I could tell. Googled it and found one message with the exact same symptoms and a cure. I had put the wheel in the wrong way round. Double doh! 

The fact I could actually do this and everything fitted was a surprise. The only mitigating circumstances in my defence was the ABS ring on the VFR is very small and well hidden (not really....).

[wingrider.steve 961]

As Andy has said the air gap is important but 0.5mm is about the minimum gap, some are quite a bit bigger than that.

A mate of mine races, last year his Ducati kept throwing up ABS error codes which I tracked down to both front and rear sensor air gaps not being to the Ducati specs which from memory was 1.00 to 1.2mm.

As Ducati do supply shims to adjust the air gap a bit of juggling with shims got both gaps to the correct spec and we had no more error codes.

This year he's been racing in the BMW F900 Cup and yet again we were having ABS senor errors popping up on the dash, but only for the front sensor.

The actual ABS braking system is disabled for racing but the ABS sensors are still used for traction control etc.

BMW do not specify an air gap for either sensor but on checking the actual gaps the rear one was approx 1.5mm and the front one (the one giving the error) was just under 3.0mm which the BMW tech guy at one of the early rounds didn't seem fazed by but it didn't look right to me, bearing in mind the problem we and some others were having.

There's no way of adjusting the senor position so I ended up removing the ABS ring from the front wheels and shimming it out to get the front sensor air gap to match the rear one and since then we've had no more ABS sensor error codes.

 

[Xactly 5,432]

One used to be able to buy shims for the oilhead BMW sensors. One wonders what one is supposed to do these days, when tolerances seem more critical. Rhetorical question….

[jeremyr62 2,560]

Get some cheap feeler gauges and cut to size yourself?

[Andy m 23,546]

21 minutes ago, Xactly said:

One used to be able to buy shims for the oilhead BMW sensors. One wonders what one is supposed to do these days, when tolerances seem more critical. Rhetorical question….

 

The sensors haven't changed since 1980 and the effects of air or other materials on magnetic fields* hasn't changed ever.**

 

*a material that transmits to a greater degree can also conduct away from the point of measurement. Remember, we are looking for a sign wave of a specific amplitude (5V or so) that can be chopped to a square wave by effectively analogue electronics. There is a signal 2 feet away, just not one you can pick out of the background when you have a transistor and fixed resistors instead of a radio telescope.

 

**Ford Motor Company vs Laws of Physics 1919, 1922, 1927.....

 

Beware confusing airgap size with shim size. A 1.5mm shim on a 1mm undercut face is far easier to handle in production than a 0.5mm shim. Tiny bits stick together and either wasted or fitted three at a time.

 

If you need to change a shim it means something has moved. Back in the days of Freelander 🤢 there was so much fettling in the stack of tolerances from axle stub to how the polewheel was pressed they had to shim. IIRC the line had a choice of five based on a sinewave measurement before fitting the sensor. They had a sensor on a bung and a meter that told the worker what to do next. There is no way a current plant would tolerate that, you first of all take out the stack of tolerances by SPC then add the thickness of the shim to the mount, hey-presto, 7p cheaper per corner and a cost-reduction bonus all round.

 

If it's moved the question is why. 

 

None of this is any more advanced than setting a valve, just measure where the manual tells you to with a feeler gauge.

 

Andy

[Xactly 5,432]

The issue to me seems to be that without available shims it is harder to know how to adjust the air gap to spec. Not difficult to measure the gap, or indeed to adjust it, as I have done previously on oilheads. BTW the gaps on my Guzzi seem really wide, but the ABS system has never faulted.

[Andy m 23,546]

Just now, Xactly said:

BTW the gaps on my Guzzi seem really wide, but the ABS system has never faulted.

Guiseppe connected both cables from the ABS ECU to the flywheel sensor. No faults and no one will ever come back and complain 😁😁😁

 

You used to be able to buy a timer to replace truck ECU's. Ignition on, ABS light on, click-click, light out, VOSA happy 🤠

 

The V7 manual gives no spec for either airgap nor polewheel runout, they rely totally on the diagnostics. These do average and ratio calculations to detect runout and a basic voltage check for airgap. So long as it can plot teeth and gaps via where the chopped square crosses the original Sine wave it's happy, the function is only on rate of change. MG weirdly then give a 0.15mm number for disc runout. We know the manual was written late one Friday night down the Trattatoria del Vino inexpensivo maximo though.

 

Andy

[Xactly 5,432]

0.15 for disc runout…given the worn bobbins now allow more like 3mm sideways play on the disc and 5 degrees of rotational movement that seems a bit academic.😀

I’ll be replacing the front disc, pads and mounting bolts next month when I (minor) service the bike before SORNing it. BTW looking at used Stone front wheels, from the raised state of the holes in the alloy into which the disc mounting bolts screw, I’ll be using a bit of heat to get the originals out. The six individually wrapped bolts come pre-coated in what looks like red Loctite. Obviously on the wheel I saw too little care was taken in getting them out. (I was contemplating fitting Stone cast wheels until I saw the price and decided against). We’ll see…..

[baben 11,728]

Andy, you are hurting my brain with all that electrickery. Us simple souls can't understand it and steam comes out of our ears when we try.

[baldric 850]

9 hours ago, Foxy said:

 

Sounds a bit like that silly New Zealander Burt Munro.

Munro is a hero of mine. His trip to Bonneville was epic.

[FurstyFerret 65]

13 hours ago, davebike said:

As a pro I thort everyone knew the powdr coat was thicker than paint!

Yes this in one I seen  luckerly we were asked to fit the ring and were able to clean off enough from the wheel side for it to work

Alsoseen disk lock dammage bend the ABS ring and then riding the bike destroyed the sensor so cheak wheel is free to ture after any work or dammage !

 

Do you reckon I should strip it back sensor side? If so what to spray on it? 🤔 

[zeerocks23 32]

1 hour ago, FurstyFerret said:

Do you reckon I should strip it back sensor side? If so what to spray on it? 🤔 

 

Found this in YouTube

 

 

 

Used this paint

 

https://www.dymark.com.au/categories/protectivedecorative/surfaceprotection/silvergal

 

Spec here:

https://2ecffd01e1ab3e9383f0-07db7b9624bbdf022e3b5395236d5cf8.ssl.cf4.rackcdn.com/Product/a9a4ba7e-ce41-4422-a85e-9e7ed7edda1e.pdf

 

There might be a UK equivalent.

 

Found this: "anti-corrosive silver paint"

https://www.paints4trade.com/zs-98-cold-zinc-galvanising-aerosol-silver-spray-paint-500ml-269998-p.asp?gad=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwj5mpBhDJARIsAOVjBdrZZId7r6Z_fDDOl3Gvw5fmvhNneI7kCTX6n4Ggp130AOo8UMvbk3MaAu48EALw_wcB

Edited October 11, 2023 by zeerocks23

[FurstyFerret 65]

9 minutes ago, zeerocks23 said:

 

Found this in YouTube

 

 

 

Used this paint

 

https://www.dymark.com.au/categories/protectivedecorative/surfaceprotection/silvergal

 

Spec here:

https://2ecffd01e1ab3e9383f0-07db7b9624bbdf022e3b5395236d5cf8.ssl.cf4.rackcdn.com/Product/a9a4ba7e-ce41-4422-a85e-9e7ed7edda1e.pdf

 

There might be a UK equivalent.

 

Found this: "anti-corrosive silver paint"

https://www.paints4trade.com/zs-98-cold-zinc-galvanising-aerosol-silver-spray-paint-500ml-269998-p.asp?gad=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwj5mpBhDJARIsAOVjBdrZZId7r6Z_fDDOl3Gvw5fmvhNneI7kCTX6n4Ggp130AOo8UMvbk3MaAu48EALw_wcB

Thanks 👍 

[davebike 943]

What I did with the powder coated one was just to clean the shit off the mounts and that restored enough clearence for the wheel to be free turning and yes teh ABS worked

I would with the bike on a center stand or other sutible stand remove the wheel and abs ring clean the wheel where the disk and ring mount and the back of the ring, reassembe and see if there is clearence for the wheel to turn  if not used rings do come up I think I one somewhere myself

 

In future just use spray paint if the ring is rusty

 

OH and if you get wheels powder coated yoou NEED to clean it off disk and ABS monts as well as bearing mounts etc

 

[FurstyFerret 65]

12 minutes ago, davebike said:

What I did with the powder coated one was just to clean the shit off the mounts and that restored enough clearence for the wheel to be free turning and yes teh ABS worked

I would with the bike on a center stand or other sutible stand remove the wheel and abs ring clean the wheel where the disk and ring mount and the back of the ring, reassembe and see if there is clearence for the wheel to turn  if not used rings do come up I think I one somewhere myself

 

In future just use spray paint if the ring is rusty

 

OH and if you get wheels powder coated yoou NEED to clean it off disk and ABS monts as well as bearing mounts etc

 

Thank you so much for the information. It's been a steep and fairly costly learning curve. 

[FurstyFerret 65]

23 hours ago, Andy m said:

Wasn't there another thread on this?

 

The ABS sensor contains about 100m of wire to form the coil, so you can imagine how thin it is. The fixed types (commercial ones float on a spring bush) are therefore sensitive to anything hitting them. If the air gap is over 0.5mm or choked with anything less conductive than air the signal starts to go.

 

Maybe I've worked with other people money for so long I've got used to it, but I really struggle with why you would try to redesign a system you have limited knowledge of to save a fly-**** component like a polewheel. They are passivated at great expense because paint and powder don't work. They unbolt and are sold as spares because passivation has a limited life. It's all been thought out. If Ford or BMW could design a plastic one to save tuppence on hire fleets they would. Up there with spending hundreds to keep chains alive I guess, it's mechanical so there is this urge not to consume it. Not as silly as re-cutting tyres, dressing brakes and clutches, reboring master cylinders etc.

 

Andy

Thanks for the info, and a good point not considered. Was lacking this knowledge and could only see a heavily rusted component to which the answer based on what I knew seemed to be do x, y, z. 

[FurstyFerret 65]

On 11/10/2023 at 22:30, zeerocks23 said:

 

Found this in YouTube

 

 

 

Used this paint

 

https://www.dymark.com.au/categories/protectivedecorative/surfaceprotection/silvergal

 

Spec here:

https://2ecffd01e1ab3e9383f0-07db7b9624bbdf022e3b5395236d5cf8.ssl.cf4.rackcdn.com/Product/a9a4ba7e-ce41-4422-a85e-9e7ed7edda1e.pdf

 

There might be a UK equivalent.

 

Found this: "anti-corrosive silver paint"

https://www.paints4trade.com/zs-98-cold-zinc-galvanising-aerosol-silver-spray-paint-500ml-269998-p.asp?gad=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwj5mpBhDJARIsAOVjBdrZZId7r6Z_fDDOl3Gvw5fmvhNneI7kCTX6n4Ggp130AOo8UMvbk3MaAu48EALw_wcB

Tried this paint now - it's awesome 👌 

Spreads a sticky and thin but tough coat. Have had mixed results with other paints, particularly chipping off when fitting. This is really good 👍 thanks 🙏 

[VinnyB 700]

Screwfix do a no nonsense silver galvanising spray. I've used it for various things and it seems to work well. Cheap too.

[fj_stuart 4,753]

9 hours ago, VinnyB said:

Screwfix do a no nonsense silver galvanising spray. I've used it for various things and it seems to work well. Cheap too.

Coincidently I used this today. I re-sprayed an engine bar on my SV. I applied three coats - Screwfix zinc primer, Lidl aluminium-zinc as an undercoat and some cheapo gloss black finish. Maybe over the top and always dodgy mixing paint manufacturers but no adverse reactions and a nice enough finish. Also I'd never use Loctite on button head Allen screws - you might want to get them back out one day.

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by fj_stuart