Chain slack

[JONO49 201]

Yes Joe it alway's will until everyone stops trying to align the chain and starts to align the wheel

Edited May 23, 2016 by JONO49

[Mike5100 2,061]

The Micrometer you refer to is actually a "Vernier guage" and the axle consists of a bolt and nut, not a nut on both sides (Unless Honda have altered it for 2016) and the adjuster markings which are on the "Washer" as you call it! are on both sides, if yours are different perhaps you could post some pics from both sides and will clear up the confusion????

Ah yes - those terms sound more accurate.  I will try to get a pic of the offside, but in the meantime if I describe that washer as not necessarily being concentric with the axle, does that make more sense?

If a collared nut like this could be used AND the circular collar was exactly the same diameter as the similar collar on the axle bolt head, then the two measurements could be relied on.  But I assume Honda has good reasons for using a separate nut and washer on the offside.

[JONO49 201]

Have you not got the stickers on the swingarm and the big Square washer on the axle bolt?????????

Edited May 23, 2016 by JONO49

[Mike5100 2,061]

I should have taken a closer look at your picture.  I thought you were measuring to the edge of the axle bolt collar.  I didn't use the square washers as you call them because they rotate out of square when I tighten the axle, and I assumed they too would have a tolerance like the offside washer.  Next time I adjust the chain I will remove the axle nut completely and check the fit of the square washers.

Mike

PS - I have a red/green sticker only on the near side of the swing arm

Edited May 23, 2016 by Mike5100

[MGR1 40]

what are people's recommendations as to the best laser chain alignment tool?

Mike

 

I have this one:

 

https://www.louis.de/en/artikel/profi-laser-cat-kettenfluchttester/10003097

 

Works perfectly on the NC.

[avalon27 10]

Just to add a bit more grist to the mill - I adjusted my 2014 Integra chain this weekend and clearly had a 'thick' moment - following handbook. There is a plastic/nylon runner under the swingarm which the chain will touch well inside its allowed slack measurement. Not sure if it unclips and comes off to allow the chain to travel further when pushed up - but as is it seems difficult to check the slack properly.

 

Perhaps I will try the chain monkey I mentioned a few months back but someone found to be not brilliant. Any other thoughts here ?

[ScaredyCat 1,659]

 

I only found this.

1. Control

6. Engine oil. 

 

All in salty water. 

Both look similar but it's a matter of interpretation. 

Top of triangle #6 is more corroded than top of Control one. There is less water on top of each triangle. 

Again, it's a matter of interpretation but it to me the engine oil is as good or worse than salty water.

 

 

Which is 1 and which is 6 ?

[Guest Krzysztof]

Which is 1 and which is 6 ?

top left is 1

bottom right is 6.

 

 

These are not scientific tests but make you think.

I'm sorry for off-topic but there is another photo.

[Rev Ken 6,343]

Just to ad to the confusion, it is easy to move the rear wheel back when tightening the axle bolt to 98NM if you are pulling your torque wrench towards the back of the bike instead of against the adjusting stops (I am assuming you use them to get the right tension in the beginning!) While I don't have an NC, I've never had any trouble adjusting chains, and never used a laser, or a micrometer. I have on occasions had to align wheels (with a straight plank of wood...)  but once  done so long as the adjusters are turned the same number of times each side the alignment remains OK.

[ScaredyCat 1,659]

top left is 1

bottom right is 6.

 

 

These are not scientific tests but make you think.

I'm sorry for off-topic but there is another photo.

 

Right then, I'm off to smear butter all over my bike (and myself) be back in a jiffy...

[Mike5100 2,061]

The pictures are interesting but raise some questions for me.  I use ACF50 but if I coated a component with it and left it outside for six months or whatver, I don't think it would like like the sample above.  ACF50 is sticky, so what have they done - have they washed the samples before photographing them.  If so, I'm surprised that many of the others would be showing red rust, as much of that is removed by washing isn't it.

And secondly the test is a static one.  Motorbike parts are generally exposed to a 70mph gale sometimes this turns into a 70mph jet of water which includes a fair amount of grit - this definitely removes the ACF50 fairly quickly and I need to reapply it.

Mike

[Rev Ken 6,343]

The pictures are interesting but raise some questions for me.  I use ACF50 but if I coated a component with it and left it outside for six months or whatver, I don't think it would like like the sample above.  ACF50 is sticky, so what have they done - have they washed the samples before photographing them.  If so, I'm surprised that many of the others would be showing red rust, as much of that is removed by washing isn't it.

And secondly the test is a static one.  Motorbike parts are generally exposed to a 70mph gale sometimes this turns into a 70mph jet of water which includes a fair amount of grit - this definitely removes the ACF50 fairly quickly and I need to reapply it.

Mike

ACF50 is used on aircraft structures, that is enough for me - although I never go quite that fast.....

 

Anyway those tests are on bare metal - we use ACF50 on plastics and painted metal, with lots of 'cracks' that it creeps into.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Rev Ken

[Mike5100 2,061]

ACF50 is used on aircraft structures, that is enough for me - although I never go quite that fast.....

 

Anyway those tests are on bare metal - we use ACF50 on plastics and painted metal, with lots of 'cracks' that it creeps into.

Yes - I agree that ACF50 is the best thing around but people need to know that they have to keep applying it.  

However, I think it's main use on my bike is indeed on bare metal.  The paint of the frame and metal bits is OK and I don't think ACF50 over the top of the paint would do much - likewise for plastic.  But there are some unpainted metal bits - banjos, nuts, bolt heads philips screwheads, and coil spring and linkages - these are what I concentrate on with acf50.  There are also some poorly painted bits that I do actually dab with acf50.  These include several mild steel brackets, and the horn surface as well as the swing arm and the side and centre stands.  The last 3 items though really need properly powder coating as the acf50 gets whisked off them just about as fst as you can apply it.

Mike

[Guest Krzysztof]

Acf50 is oily when in bottle but when applied it turns into thick gel over time. After some more time it's getting very dry and almost like plastic.

It's not perfect but it's best I know for exposed metal parts and electrics.

[michael 324]

Thread successfully hijacked!

 

Chain slack inquiry seems to have been answered so i'll comment on the discussions on corrosion.  Mostly because I can't help it but for a certainty i'll have very little to add.

 

Tell me (tongue stuck firmly in cheek) why we're looking at pieces of angle iron and hinges when chains, and most of our motorcycles, are not made of these metals? Shouldn't we be using chain as a comparison metal?

 

Carry on!

[Guest Krzysztof]

It was my mistake by posting corrosion stuff here.

On a related side - when I was using engine oil on my chain oiler it damaged o rings and my chain was loose sideways.

[Rev Ken 6,343]

Thread successfully hijacked!

 

Chain slack inquiry seems to have been answered so i'll comment on the discussions on corrosion.  Mostly because I can't help it but for a certainty i'll have very little to add.

 

Tell me (tongue stuck firmly in cheek) why we're looking at pieces of angle iron and hinges when chains, and most of our motorcycles, are not made of these metals? Shouldn't we be using chain as a comparison metal?

 

Carry on!

You have a point - but we'll get into the argument that WD40 is good for chains! (ACF50 isn't recommended, and unless my tin of WD40 is missing a trick nowhere does it way it is a lubricant!) 

 

WD-40

Stops squeaks

Drives out moisture

Cleans and protects

Loosens rusted parts

Frees sticky mechanisms.

[ste7ios 469]

WD-40 is a nice product to mostly remove rust, dirt, extricating jammed screws and bolts, etc but its lubricating properties are not enough for every use... It's mostly naphtha. We've to admit that it has excellent marketing...

 

We've hundreds of lubricants because one lubricant can't cover every requirement. The requirements are: speed of moving parts, temperature range, environment, load, and material.

 

That's why we need at least 10 different lubricants for a motorcycle (8 greases & 2 oils).

 

Take a look at Dow Cornings's catalogue to have an idea: Molykote Industrial Lubricants

 

 

Chain drives need a lubricant with EP (extreme pressure) additives like gear oil (for manual transmissions only) or a more specialized product (the base is always mineral oil with the additives).

 

O-Rings are made by nitric / nitrile rubber (NBR) which is destroyed by solvents & other substances like gasoline, light oil, benzene, etc. Naphtha is deteriorating it a little but the most important is that products like WD-40 may penetrate inside the ring and dissolve the grease in the long-term...

 

It has good resistance to mineral oils (engine & gear oils in general) so it's really strange how it damaged Krzysztof's chain... Also some gaskets & O-Rings inside the engine are also made by NBR...

 

There are a lot of of compatibility lists like this if you want to check... http://mykin.com/rubber-chemical-resistance-chart

[Guest Krzysztof]

I admit that it was very surprising to me when my dealer show me my chain and told that whatever I use it badly damaged o rings. It was very loose sideways.

I have also white dots on my left pannier where the oil flings of the chain.

From what I know vegetable oils can do that but engine oil should be fine. Suzuki and some auto oilers companies reccomend it for chains. Honda reccomends gear oil.

Maybe there are some additives that can cause it? Maybe it happens when combined with salt?

These two photos give examples where engine oil gives no rust protection or even accelerate corrosion. I may to do some tests as well to check it.

No chance I will do the test on a brand new chain, however.

[ste7ios 469]

NBR has no problem with sodium chloride (salt).

Engine oil has additives to protect the engine (aluminum), gaskets, etc from corrosion occurred by combustion... It will not protect other metals like stainless steel.

Rubber is attacked by different substances.

It would be good to know what oil, chain & chain cleaner you had used... All chains & engines oils are different. Maybe it was the specific combination of chain & engine oil...

[Guest Krzysztof]

It would be good to know what oil, chain & chain cleaner you had used... All chains & engines oils are different. Maybe it was the specific combination of chain & engine oil...

 

Chain was OEM. No cleaners.

I was using autooiler with either Silkolene (i think it was 10w40 semi) and/or cheapest Halfords (I guess mineral 10w40).

The chain done 24000 miles and I've thought I'm on a good way to do 40K as it almost didn't stretched. It was showed to me when serviced by Honda. There was so little rubber left you could move these shiny metal rings sideways.

It also reacted with plastic pannier and topbox.

 

I'm using Scottoil now with OEM chain and 20 000 miles later the chain is fine. Adjusted maybe 4 times. Changing anyway as the front sprocket (Ognibene silent one - not recommended) is gone.

[Mike5100 2,061]

I should have taken a closer look at your picture.  I thought you were measuring to the edge of the axle bolt collar.  I didn't use the square washers as you call them because they rotate out of square when I tighten the axle, and I assumed they too would have a tolerance like the offside washer.  Next time I adjust the chain I will remove the axle nut completely and check the fit of the square washers.

Mike

PS - I have a red/green sticker only on the near side of the swing arm

I used the micrometer/vernier/calliper thing the way Jono suggested - using the edge of the 'square' washer which is on each end of the axle.  There was 2 mm difference - which I think is a lot.  Now I thought I had done a decent alignment of the chain using the special tool, but maybe I didn't.  Also another thing to think about is that when I set it up about 300 miles ago the chain slack was just right and now it's too slack. (This is a new chain well lubricated)  I know that the axle was torqued up correctly and I checked that the end plates and nuts and bolts were all tight.  It's too much variation to be accounted for by supposed tight spots.

Mike

[JONO49 201]

I used the micrometer/vernier/calliper thing the way Jono suggested - using the edge of the 'square' washer which is on each end of the axle.  There was 2 mm difference - which I think is a lot.  Now I thought I had done a decent alignment of the chain using the special tool, but maybe I didn't.  Also another thing to think about is that when I set it up about 300 miles ago the chain slack was just right and now it's too slack. (This is a new chain well lubricated)  I know that the axle was torqued up correctly and I checked that the end plates and nuts and bolts were all tight.  It's too much variation to be accounted for by supposed tight spots.

Mike

If there was 2mm deviation why didn't you get rid of it using the adjusters, and if you stop being obsessed why "Chain Alignment" and concentrate on chain slack adjustment, then align the rear wheel when you have the correct slack, and torque the axle nut!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[embee 7,288]

I do find that the chain links are fairly stiff (or at least there is resistance to movement) especially when it is cold. If you try to set the slack when it's cold the resistance tends to make it effectively less willing to flex, consequently I find it always feels slightly looser when it is warm after a run. It's just something you have to live with and allow for.

[Mike5100 2,061]

If there was 2mm deviation why didn't you get rid of it using the adjusters, and if you stop being obsessed why "Chain Alignment" and concentrate on chain slack adjustment, then align the rear wheel when you have the correct slack, and torque the axle nut!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do try to follow your kindly advice Jono, and in fact that's exactly what I did today - set the two sides up to be the same within 0.4mm.  Then I torqued the axle and decided to measure again - they were now nearly 2mm out.  Part of the reason is that the square washer on the offside had obviously moved - it was out of square.  Anyway - started again and eventually got them nearly the same and with the chain slack OK.  When I got back from my ride it was much too slack - I think Embee's explanation above is likely correct.  

Mike